REDgamma2 and other examples...

[Gunleik Groven]

Echoing all, these pictures speak volumes towards the investment that keeps on giving...

For quite a while now there have been a number of people suggesting that the only way to get the most out of their RED One is to work with RED footage exclusively with R3D (RAW) itself. While there are tremendous benefits to working with RAW footage through the finishing process, feature films with a substantial amount of visual effects shots will not be able to easily integrate RGB files from VFX vendors and R3Ds as RAW files. This is especially true with VFX films that include over 1,000 shots (or over 50% of the TRT).
Many people may find it interesting that I don't typically work with R3Ds all that often in the finishing stages of digital intermediate. The simple fact is a lot of our projects have so many VFX shots it isn't feasible. -Yet with the science RED has provided and improved upon over the years, I have never experienced a qualitative compromise. This is why RED's investment into improving the color and gamma spaces for an RGB debayer (DPX or otherwise) is extremely valuable to all RED customers.
What the new REDLogFilm and REDGamma 2 show is that the next generation of RED manipulation can be done on films that may not have a workflow that relies exclusively on R3D manipulation. And these particular advancements show that continuing to work outside of the R3Ds does not pose a penalty. Altogether it validates that many different workflows out there-R3D or RGB-can still get the most out of their footage with a few clicks of a button. Priceless information like this that benefits the whole fleet is why we must always stay tuned and alert.
m

This is interesting.

I work a bit for nrk.no, and most of our major in-house, and externally produced series have been shot on red since april 2008

We have consistently had better results when grading from DPX's that are well prepared than with the RAW tools. Despite that we've been planning to go RAW online for most of the two upcomming productions, they'll go online next fall (9 months of shooting on both...)

I really have come to like the EXR to Nuke thingy. works fantastically and also gives an effortless colorhandling between grading and VFX. All thanks to redlogFilm.

Would have been interesting on a breakdown on your workflow on a scene. I know I am asking a lot, but the info from you and others is very much apprechiated...

Cheers!

Gunleik

 

[Clint Lealos]

@Pete

First, its not a stupid question at all. I bet you aren't the only one thinking, "Why is everyone so happy about this."

You are right...None of those have been graded except the 4th and 5th versions. Versions 1, 2, and 3 are just different color spaces, or starting points for a color grade. Indeed, the first example has more contrast and looks best straight out of camera, but it also gives you the least amount of dynamic range to work with during color grading. With that said, there is no best color space for everything. Instead, there are different options for different applications. I hope that helps.

 

[peteb]

Great, thanks everyone for the interesting insights into this . Like I said I really have no idea about colour grading in film/TV. I've shot Raw before on my DSLR (stills) and have a basic grasp of Colour Gamut, so what you guys have said has really helped me understand what I'm looking at.

Many thanks.

Pete B

 

[M Most]

With that said, there is no best color space for everything.

That will hopefully not be the case once the IIF/ACES system is fully implemented.

 

[TimWitte]

Grading rookie here but what is the major advantage grading in REDlogFilm over REDgamma2? I know REDlogFilm produces a flatter image but does it contain more DR or more details then REDgamma2 when you grade both to look good? And is there a special technique grading log images or is it the same as REDgamma2, just apply lift, gamma, gain and fiddle with other controls until perfection?

 

[Graeme Nattress]

REDLog film is great for traditional grading and VFX workflows to match over to linear light EXRs. REDGamma2 starts the grading process for you, but leaves the image rather neutral.

Graeme

 

[Bjørn Vermo]

Echoing all, these pictures speak volumes towards the investment that keeps on giving...

For quite a while now there have been a number of people suggesting that the only way to get the most out of their RED One is to work with RED footage exclusively with R3D (RAW) itself. While there are tremendous benefits to working with RAW footage through the finishing process, feature films with a substantial amount of visual effects shots will not be able to easily integrate RGB files from VFX vendors and R3Ds as RAW files.
...
m

Yes, I can see that - which is why I have been wondering for some time now if it is possible to get a toolkit to make R3Ds from applications like Maya or whatever one might use for CG work.

 

[Antoine Fabi]

REDLog film is great for traditional grading and VFX workflows to match over to linear light EXRs. REDGamma2 starts the grading process for you, but leaves the image rather neutral.

Graeme

Hi Graeme,

Let's say i export from RCX in REDLog Film "flat" without touching anything other than white balance with ProRes 444.

Since the image is very very flat and concentrated in the middle portion of the histogram (at least visually), and thus "wasting" very low and very high values, is there risks of causing banding when applying curves afterwards ? Does the ProRes have 10 or 12 bit ?

...or is it better to "begin" the CC process by exporting using more contrasty curve of RedGamma2 (not very contrasty, but more contrasty than REDLog Film) ?

Antoine

 

[Christopher Barrett]

Hi Graeme,

...or is it better to "begin" the CC process by exporting using more contrasty curve of RedGamma2 (not very contrasty, but more contrasty than REDLog Film) ?

Antoine

Interesting... my workflow with stills was always to get the Raw as close to final as possible before exporting a Tiff. I assumed I should do the same with R3D's?

CB

 

[Lee Saxon]

Interesting... my workflow with stills was always to get the Raw as close to final as possible before exporting a Tiff. I assumed I should do the same with R3D's?

CB

Me too.

This is why Adobe needs to put R3D into ACR instead of that lame thing PP/AE use now. I want to do EVERYTHING, not just exposure/ISO/RGB sliders, before I downconvert.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Me too.

This is why Adobe needs to put R3D into ACR instead of that lame thing PP/AE use now. I want to do EVERYTHING, not just exposure/ISO/RGB sliders, before I downconvert.

Since you're talking without respect for the work of Adobe and categorically expressing what you want as if it should be the law, your wishes are those of people who are not professionals and have no true knowledge of how color correction really works. RCX, which is a free app no less, allows decent color correction but it is NOT, nor was it meant to be, a color correction tool. Since Adobe has much more finely tuned effects to perform color correction inside both PP and AE, including the world class Color Finesse 3 inside AE, and since you can access RED files inside Abode natively in raw form, why should Adobe replicate all that RCX does in their RAW importer just because that is how you want it to be? If you know what you're doing, then getting the same results, and much better ones actually, out of PP or AE as you can from RCX should not be a problem. And then again, if you're happy with doing your color correction in RCX, why use Adobe at all? If all you want is an editor, then grade in RCX and edit in PP and you're done.

 

[Tim Morten]

REDLog film is great for traditional grading and VFX workflows to match over to linear light EXRs. REDGamma2 starts the grading process for you, but leaves the image rather neutral.

Graeme

Thanks Graeme!!

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

REDLog film is great for traditional grading and VFX workflows to match over to linear light EXRs. REDGamma2 starts the grading process for you, but leaves the image rather neutral.

Graeme

You guys are spot on with RC2 and RG2!

I was always fiddling with a myriad of settings to achive the highlight protection and natural image these settings provide from the get go.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Thanks Graeme!!

I appreciate your humour and photoshop work. Perhaps we should have ketctup packets in the RED Studios cafe made up like that? Would certainly get a laugh.

Graeme

 

[Lee Saxon]

Since you're talking without respect for the work of Adobe

How did you get that from "ACR is so good that if I could open R3Ds in it I wouldn't even need anything else" ?

 

[Brook Willard]

I can't wait until the "RAW view" mode on the RED ONE [and Epic, naturally] let me view REDlogFilm instead. For so many DPs, gaffers and DITs who think in log space from years of dealing with other cameras, being able to check a lovely low-contrast log mode would be fantastic.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I can't wait until the "RAW view" mode on the RED ONE [and Epic, naturally] let me view REDlogFilm instead. For so many DPs, gaffers and DITs who think in log space from years of dealing with other cameras, being able to check a lovely low-contrast log mode would be fantastic.

Me too wants this soooo badly

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Since you're talking without respect for the work of Adobe and categorically expressing what you want as if it should be the law, your wishes are those of people who are not professionals and have no true knowledge of how color correction really works. RCX, which is a free app no less, allows decent color correction but it is NOT, nor was it meant to be, a color correction tool. Since Adobe has much more finely tuned effects to perform color correction inside both PP and AE, including the world class Color Finesse 3 inside AE, and since you can access RED files inside Abode natively in raw form, why should Adobe replicate all that RCX does in their RAW importer just because that is how you want it to be? If you know what you're doing, then getting the same results, and much better ones actually, out of PP or AE as you can from RCX should not be a problem. And then again, if you're happy with doing your color correction in RCX, why use Adobe at all? If all you want is an editor, then grade in RCX and edit in PP and you're done.

Although yes, Adobe has done wonderful work, the Source Settings dialog is the last RAW-space stop in PP, so other effects like curves outside this menu are not the same as they occur in RBG space. Can good results be obtained anyway? Of course, but it is not exactly the same as the controls in RCX which are 100% RAW floating point, and I agree it would be nice to have curves and 3-way pots within the Source Settings menu, in order to be able to perform these actions without leaving RAW space and without loading up RCX.

I would also love it if the arrow-nudging of settings did not cause such dramatic changes (Maybe Shift-Arrow for slow/small nudges?)

 

[TimWitte]

REDLog film is great for traditional grading and VFX workflows to match over to linear light EXRs. REDGamma2 starts the grading process for you, but leaves the image rather neutral.

Graeme

So there is no real advantage using REDlogFilm over REDGamma2 (other than the EXR matching)? Both settings could be graded to an identical image? (using other lift/gamma/gain/curve values)
I could be way off of course, I'm not an experienced colorist, but can anyone explain why you would prefer one over the other?

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Tim, it's about grading preference - how do you like your image to begin? Nothing done to it, a log curve, a more contrasty curve, somewhere inbetween? There's a lot of personal preference involved.