REDCINE-X

[Frank Weeks]

We aren't likely to change (too much) how we do things. I like it this way. It really is fun throwing away the rule book. We will never be perfect, but we will always be interesting (at least in our own mind).

and why should you. If it isn't broke....

 

[I Bloom]

ROCKETcineX feels more like alpha than beta. I'll generally play with something as early as I can get it but whether or not something is suitable for release to the general public is another story. You can preach till the cows come home that it's beta, early, subject to change, etc. The fact is people judge what you give them, no matter what label you stick on it (c'mon Jim you must have learned that the hard way by now). After playing with RocketCineX for 2 days I would have recommended you did an extended private beta (with me included of course :laugh. Google just showed off a very early developer preview of 'Wave' and they are getting criticized for how rough around the edges it is. RED and Google are both darlings of their respective industries but people start to get less forgiving as you grow.

Whatever you do, keep my name in the bank as a beta tester but think twice before releasing to the community.

It always comes down to... would you rather wait or try. Mark me down for try.

IBloom

 

[Kaku Ito]

More people trying during the beta process can make the future release always better. And RED has established the community to back people up where big guys usually don't have that.

 

[Kevin Wild]

I LOVE the way RED doesn't go by the normal rules. Seriously, in the long run, I do think people who are fans of the company and "buy in" really get a lot out of the experience. However, RED should absolutely expect occasional bouts of serious frustration from some of it's customers or possible customers, by working this way.

For instance, RED Rocket™™™™™™ was shipped without working software. It's a $5,000 purchase and it barely worked at all the first week and still has a ways to go. Some people might be infuriated by that, judge RED as amateur and leave them as future customers. (To me, a "beta" always meant "please don't formally review it publicly yet as it's not quite done. It seems RED does it just as much to get feedback...) The lack of manuals and the choice to instead let the boards here act as instruction is another decision that doesn't always go over with people who don't like browsing boards. Again, RED's way is not for everyone and I would guess they know that and are okay with it.

I'm guessing RED is fine with the risk to do business RED-style. Personally, it's taken me some time to get used to it, but I love it now. I WAS a little frustrated that the Rocket isn't quite working yet, but I so much more appreciate that they are doing the things they are doing, pushing the boundaries of what can be done AND wanting to share it with customers as quickly as possible, rather than waiting until it's "out of beta" and ready to review.

So...I say onward. Oh, and get that RED Rocket™™™™™™ working like we all want it to.

Kevin

PS-Is the RED Rocket trademarked? Are we sure?

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

My feeling is that, if you don't want to be part of the early testing, or if you want everything to work perfectly, then just don't be the first in line.

Wait a little while and let the people who are suffused with early-adopter enthusiasm experience the growing pains.

I usually don't want to alpha/beta test - primarily because I think that there are way more qualified and enthusiastic testers out there.

But I felt that, as one of the earliest Rocket reservation holders, shooting the RED developers a few feedback notes was the least that I could do -- given how much we have all benefited from the beta testing of all of the new early adopters. Just pitching in my bit - that's one of the cool things about this product, the level of community involvement - and how fast things improve as a result.

If you don't want that involvement, then just don't jump so fast on the new stuff, just wait and let others do it, and exert a little patience while RED works at the speed of RED to push ridiculously amazing stuff out the door...

 

[sbcooler]

I love how RED is run. You guys are open, doing your best and unconventional...but MOST of all you CARE...and that along with some great toys makes all the difference. To me at least.

Thank you! And look forward to buying my first camera from RED...Scarlet...sometime next year. Hopefully more than 1 of them!

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Point taken... but I'd keep one thing in mind. Better make sure you really want us to be more like the "big guys" when it comes to releasing product. That just might mean a lot of things that are worse than alpha/beta software. We could always add three features and sell it as a new model.

We aren't likely to change (too much) how we do things. I like it this way. It really is fun throwing away the rule book. We will never be perfect, but we will always be interesting (at least in our own mind).

Jim

Good! Because going against the status quo is what makes RED great, and how true innovation works... its also obvious to me your methods have a direct correlation to AFFORDABLE digital filmmaking gear, and to actually embrace the community (knowing there will be naysayers, takes HUEVOS)

Especially when the gear replaces or improves upon systems that cost end users 10 to times as much or more.

Guy Kawasaki also defies standard convention in his book Art of the Start
with VERY SPECIFIC advice for software manufactures... SHIP IT AS SOON AS YOU CAN...

I also like to remember this quote when taking a risk...

'Great Spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" ~ Alber Einstein

 

[Raphael Varandas]

:yesnod: Very well Mr. Jannard... what's next??

 

[Michael McLaughlin]

I find it interesting...

I find it interesting...

that this feels like the solidifying of a new paradigm shift. Right now... this moment, as these arguments and ideas are hashed out.

I think it will take some time for people to wrap their heads around this model and just what has been transpiring these last couple of years. With RED it is all still so fluid, in a lot of ways, but in very good ways.

I feel like they are reacting exceptionally well to forces around them, specifically on the big picture stuff. I know some people will disagree, but man... if you laid it out on a time line, and stepped back and paused for a second to take it all in, it just seems breathtaking.

Honestly I feel RED is being a lot more honest then a lot of the other competitors are, on business climates, feedback, etc.

I also feel like I am watching a boxer who came to the ring a little later in life, but has some beautiful tricks up his sleeve to even the odds out. Serious, I love the adaptation on the fly, but I guess for others this is not so fun.

I think or hope that this is starting to dawn on people... that all this is a good thing; and a pretty damned nice organic feed back loop (to boot).

I mean, it can get a little rough and tumble on these boards, but it is an excellent way to refine something down... and make it closer to our dreams.

I've worked on many sides of the entertainment industry, high end sales, operations manager, online editor... I really feel like this is such a new thing for people to get use to, that it will take a bit of time for it to become "habit".

Yet I think these last two months the shift / penetration (on a mental state) has finally started to sink in with some producers, editors, operation managers etc.

Then again maybe I am just crazy.

 

[Brook Willard]

RocketCINE-X has a long way to come, sure, but it's much like the RED ONE when it was first released. New features every few days, bug fixes before you can even report them. It's nice.

I don't doubt that REDCINE-X will eventually become a very polished app. With RED's next wave of cameras set to appeal to the greater masses, it's essential. While we're all willing to sort through countless updates, bug fixes, feature additions and tricks to get workflows working, the masses are not.

REDCINE-X seems poised to fill this gap. I don't see another REDCINE [with its finicky exports]... I don't see another RED:Alert [the prerelease test bed app that never died]. REDCINE-X is very user-friendly, it has a very Lightroom-esque interface and will no doubt be rock solid and feature-complete by the time people are picking up $3,000 Scarlets at B&H.

RED knows this just as much as we do. Keep it up, folks.

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

by the time people are picking up $3,000 Scarlets at B&H.

its a Dream for thausands of people..

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Point taken... but I'd keep one thing in mind. Better make sure you really want us to be more like the "big guys" when it comes to releasing product. That just might mean a lot of things that are worse than alpha/beta software. We could always add three features and sell it as a new model.

We aren't likely to change (too much) how we do things. I like it this way. It really is fun throwing away the rule book. We will never be perfect, but we will always be interesting (at least in our own mind).

Jim

I like this exchange. I would say the earlier poster has some points. And I think RED IS changing more than he realizes. My view on this says that RED will release early versions of SOME things, but not others. I.E. when you have a working model of REDCine, then you may get Alpha versions of replacement software because you already have a working model to go back too.

In the case of Epic and Scarlet, you will NOT see RED throwing early versions out to the public because it will hurt sales. Jim has stated somewhere that he no longer wants to release a "Beta camera" and that the new models will be released when they are tested and ready.

So in some ways the first poster made good points, and in others Jim is cool still releasing early versions of certain things. This is not a black and white issue, but it is an interestinig one to watch if you like following a business from it's start and seeing how it adapts.

Jay

 

[Jimmy Gitonga]

What I have seen, is that the RED ONE and its time frame (about 2 years) in which all the software is being released is all the BETA stage for the RED DIGITAL CINEMA. Once REDCINE-X, RED Rocket with ROCKETcine-X are final, the release of what we are all waiting for begins - EPIC and Scarlet. This community as we know it will be no more. There will be communities in their hundreds, RED Asia, Latino RED, Afro RED, etc.

Personally I would love to be part of the RED ONE community just because these guys will be special when we are looking at 100,000 RED cameras (that's EPICs and Scarlets for you) of all sorts 5-10 years down the road.

Enjoy it while it lasts, your head is about to slam on the headrest...

 

[Erik Bien]

Once REDCINE-X, RED Rocket™ with ROCKETcine-X are final, the release of what we are all waiting for begins - EPIC and Scarlet.

Considering Jim has said RED's software is unlikely to ever be 'final,' I sure hope you're wrong about this! :nono:

 

[M Most]

Well, this being Red User, it doesn't surprise me that nearly everyone here immediately jumped head first into the "I love being a permanent beta tester" camp. And for those doing personal projects, and I suppose for a number of others who are shooting with their own gear, I can somewhat understand that. But at the same time, I would point out that for a producer who is about to spend about $50,000 per day shooting a major project, with a studio, financiers, and producers standing watch, the notion of being a beta tester doesn't sit particularly well. What is expected in that world is ultimate reliability and only a bare minimum of questions. People here often wonder why you aren't seeing Reds being used on network television programs, or, for the most part, on large features, when cameras such as the Genesis and F35 are very widely accepted on those same projects. There are a lot of reasons for that, but one of them is most certainly the reputation that Red has engendered as a permanently "beta" device with permanently "beta" software support. I'm not commenting on the truth or falsity of that perception, but it is a perception none the less, and the very things that people here seem to embrace are the same things that are hindering wider adoption on the higher end of the industry. Not the only things, but definitely a factor. Just some food for thought.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

People here often wonder why you aren't seeing Reds being used on network television programs, or, for the most part, on large features, when cameras such as the Genesis and F35 are very widely accepted on those same projects. There are a lot of reasons for that, but one of them is most certainly the reputation that Red has engendered as a permanently "beta" device with permanently "beta" software support.

Mike -

While I do understand the point you are trying to make but there is "perception" and their is "reality".

REALITY - on ANY given day - there are more RED cameras shooting high-end profession material than all the Genesis and F35s combined. That is a mathematical fact.

Posts of "issues" reported these days are MOSTLY people without lots of experience, proper technicians/crew members or folks shooting with gear that was not properly maintained or checked out.

There is also a reason camera crews call the Genesis ... the Nemesis.

Things change. Even in an industry of stubborn preservationists.

Sure, RED chose to put the cameras in the hands of many before any other company would do so ... and there is a bit of back-lash on the "perception" side of things - but now that major players are using the RED ONE cameras every day with totally positive results ... any negative perception of "beta product" will disappear before you can say ... "HOLY SHIT ... they are shipping the Mysterium X sensor ... ALREADY".

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

(Snip)

Posts of "issues" reported these days are MOSTLY people without lots of experience, proper technicians/crew members or folks shooting with gear that was not properly maintained or checked out.

Proper rental houses and top tier owner/ops supporting professional camera assistants should be able to set up and maintain the RedOne camera system with 99% up time performance. Shows with burn rates of $30K/day or more usually book a back up camera body, whether its a RedOne or any other pro system - including 35mm film cameras.

At the risk of repeating the obvious, with some acquisition methodolgies (like 35mm film) problems may not be detected until the next day. With a proper on set DIT/Tech station you should have verified and backed up media in minutes.

All that said, Mike makes a valid point, the "always in beta" perception is not helping get lots of RedOne's onto bigger shows. Whatever the reality, most producers are focused primarily on keeping their own jobs and any risk, whether real or imagined, is not on their "to do" list.

Cheers - #19

 

[M Most]

While I do understand the point you are trying to make but there is "perception" and their is "reality".

REALITY - on ANY given day - there are more RED cameras shooting high-end profession material than all the Genesis and F35s combined. That is a mathematical fact.

Well, as someone who is not Off Hollywood but is rather In Hollywood, I would say that there are multiple realities in our business. There is the reality of independent production, and there is the reality of studio based and broadcast network production. And these are indeed two different realities. In my reality, there is only one network show that is on Red, but at least 20 that are on either Genesis, F35, or F23. And there are very few studio based features that are on Red, but a number of them on the aforementioned cameras. Buzzwords and paranoia are very powerful things, especially in Los Angeles. What I said was said with respect to that reality - the one in which your math is not fact. Granted, there are reasons I wasn't commenting on (post production, and the perceived confusion surrounding it being a primary one), but that doesn't negate what I did say.

Things change. Even in an industry of stubborn preservationists.

Mark, you know that at the studio and network level it's not about being stubborn or a preservationist. Maybe for some cameramen it is, but it's not for the producers and executives who make these decision. It's about reliability and quality, trusted vendors, and flexibility. It's about formats and methodologies that are transportable across vendors, facilities, and deliverable elements. It's about having generally agreed upon ways of handling things so that when turnarounds get tight and post needs to be accelerated, that can be done because everyone works essentially the same way. And, since a network television season can last 8 or 9 months, it's also about having things that don't significantly change from July of one year through April of the next. You might consider that stubborn. I consider it decision making that takes into account the realities of the television business.

 

[Michael Moreno]

I respect that the cameras will be released when they are ready,
But I'm dye'ing to see more of them in hand being tested.
I am so anxious to have the lighter body and could really use that fix.
I know this might equal a lot more people on here getting their panties in a bunch over its release date, but as a red owner with alot of patience, please consider my lust for the "new bodiez" :001_tt1:
At least some subtle nudity of the cams creatively showing just a bit of their slender frames LOL ; )

I'm fiending and the glass kept me from satisfaction
in vegas at reduser nab

I need my fix!
Don't judge me!!!:banghead:

 

[Craig Schober]

this is turning into an interesting thread even if it's way off track. i see your point that red's beta approach is scaring off some big guys but i also know the numbers and smaller scale of the many red productions out there every day.

i think the "beta program" of red's is a great thing not just because it gets this great technology in my hands as fast as any big filmmaker's (ss and pj excluded) but it also seems to level or rather lower the playing field and the cost to play. for the first time in digital acquisition, the independent producers with sheer numbers are making the bigger networks and studios come to them. there will always be big players but soon there will be so many players that production costs will have to lower to meet demand. this might all just be a giant bubble of crappy indy, internet movies waiting to burst but if ever there was a large distribution system waiting to be taken down and re-imagined, i'd say the tv and film industries fall squarely into that category.