Red1 vs HPX 500 / Sony EX3

[James Stone]

Ok, there have been lots of discussions about R1 vs 7D/5D. Can someone put their thoughts about these cameras (HPX 500, 370 / Sony EX3).

'Cause HPX 500 is a bit closer to R1 price.

 

[Eki Halkka]

Ok, there have been lots of discussions about R1 vs 7D/5D. Can someone put their thoughts about these cameras (HPX 500, 370 / Sony EX3).

'Cause HPX 500 is a bit closer to R1 price.

HPX 500 is very, very soft. Softer than many current home video cameras. Barely 720p.

Haven't used 370.

EX3 is much better, a really nice camera for it's price. It's rather compressed 8 bit 4:2:0, which some people loathe, but it can produce very, very nice images regardless.

This said, Red one blows both out the water. Red one with MX sensor upgrade does so even more.

 

[Charles Angus]

Red 1 is significantly better for structured narrative stuff than any of the other cameras you mentioned.

For docco, I would take an HPX-370, if I could only choose from the cams you named. Better ergonomics than RED, smaller sensor, lighter and more versatile zooms. EX3 would be a second choice.

I don't even consider the 500, and never have, for the reason Eki mentions. It's soft because it's an upconverting standard def camera, for what it's worth. If you're looking for a camera in that form factor, the 370 is nice, but if you need 2/3" chips, look at the HDX-900 (still a nice cam, though old) or the newer HPX-XXXX series of cameras.

 

[James Stone]

Actually my requirement is for film making with some visual effects and its not for documentary.

 

[Jay Gannon]

RED by a million miles in that case, dosent compare.

 

[James Stone]

It would be great to see some comments about the hpx 370 too

 

[chrislancaster]

It would be great to see some comments about the hpx 370 too

go to dvxuser.com ..you will get a lot of info about it there this is a site about and for red

 

[James Stone]

go to dvxuser.com ..you will get a lot of info about it there this is a site about and for red

i.e., in comparison to the Red1

 

[James Stone]

When people are making comparative tests between T2i/7d and R1 then why not other cameras.

 

[Bryce O]

'Cause HPX 500 is a bit closer to R1 price.

When people are making comparative tests between T2i/7d and R1 then why not other cameras.

It's not so much the price as it's the fact that right now the T2i, 7D, and Red One are basically the only widely available 35mm format cameras that the general public can purchase. Allot of people want the 35mm look, and don't need the extra resolution the Red One provides... So the 7D/5D/T2i step in here.

 

[Eki Halkka]

It's not so much the price as it's the fact that right now the T2i, 7D, and Red One are basically the only widely available 35mm format cameras that the general public can purchase.

D90 sort of does video too

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I am not a fan at all of the HPX 500, the HPX170 and HVX200 cameras.

Why?

Because their sensor resolution is 960x540.

They are exemplary SD cameras, but all of their HD output is soft- even at 720p.

The HPX 370 is a good ENG/EFP camera. It has good ergonomics. It records 10 bit 4:2:2 1080p on real 1080p sensors. The codec used, AVC-Intra, is a bit processor intensive, so when using these cameras I routinely transcode to ProRes or the like for any non-trivial post.

I don't like the depth of field characteristics of that camera- or any 1/3" imager camera for that matter. I dislike P2 cards- they are outdated technology and I wish Panasonic would offer more modern media.

The EX1 and EX3 are better photographically, because of their 1/2" imager- but that's only a relative improvement. Its still difficult to achieve good control over depth of field. They are slightly more light sensitive, and I appreciate the SxS media by comparison to the P2 media. I am not a fan of the XDCAM format for narrative production. It is an 8 bit 4:2:0 long GOP format. Bad. You can improve this of course using an outboard recorder. The Convergent Design NanoFlash and AJA KiPro are both good options, and both deliver 10 bit 4:2:2

The Sony XDCAM EX F350 is a much better choice, though it isn't on your list. Its basically a souped up EX1 with 2/3" imagers in a standard ENG body. You can buy one with a lens for about $18000, I think. With the NanoFlash or KiPro added this is a very usable narrative production camera. Its a very flexible system to build a new business around as well, one camera that can handle lots of different types of work.

Now, by comparison to RED, all of these cameras suck for one reason or another. Resolution and RAW recording simply blows them out of the water, as does the native S35 sized sensor and resultant DoF characteristics.

Of course, RED is also a much more expensive camera. $17,500 buys you a body, but a real working rig is closer to $40000. That said, I'll put RED side by side with cameras that are much more expensive and stand by the results.

Where RED sucks is in workflow.

Of course RED offers one of the most flexible post systems at any price... but it requires deeper knowledge and training, professionalism and a solid infrastructure.

All the cool things you can do with REDCODE images come with a huge penalty you pay in post for the most part. This starts with relatively huge data sizes that require processing before being usable with most NLE's in a standard workflow.

Workflow is usually rather straightforward with the other cameras I've talked about. For the most part you can just drop them onto the timeline of any recent NLE package and work as usual- and that's a huge boon.

I hope that helps.

If you want more specific advice then you'd have to share a lot more about the particular project you are doing. Feel free to PM me if you like.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I
Where RED sucks is in workflow.

Of course RED offers one of the most flexible post systems at any price... but it requires deeper knowledge and training, professionalism and a solid infrastructure.

All the cool things you can do with REDCODE images come with a huge penalty you pay in post for the most part. This starts with relatively huge data sizes that require processing before being usable with most NLE's in a standard workflow.

Workflow is usually rather straightforward with the other cameras I've talked about. For the most part you can just drop them onto the timeline of any recent NLE package and work as usual- and that's a huge boon.

I think this is changing a bit. Although Red Rocket is a bit costly for very small shops, for everyone else it spits out whatever flavor of offline/online video you need. Rocketcine was pretty darn stable for this task, and Redcine-X is getting there.

For those without the budget for Red Rockets or who choose not to use that type of workflow, Avid and Adobe have made some big progress in native R3D support. The Adobe workflow is pretty simple, and if you have compatible hardware, the Mercury engine seems like it chews through footage pretty well. Just a few loose ends to tie up and Adobe will be right there leading the pack in terms of R3D. Avid catching up quick too, which is great. Apple, well, we'll know when we know.

R3Ds are relatively small for what they provide in terms of image quality. Every other format out there that uses heavy compression to squeeze into user friendly data sizes are compromised visually. A lot of them can look very good, even great especially under good lighting, but REDCODE is one of the most robust compressed codecs being used. When monitoring is done properly, comparisons between other codecs and Redcode start to show obvious advantages to shooting RED, in particular M-X and new color science.

So, to me posting RED is less of an issue today as long as you use the right tools. And my guess is that once all three of the big NLEs offer stable, native R3D editing this will become one of the easiest codecs to work with which will make the transition to Scarlet even easier as the post side will have matured enough that it's as easy to work with as P2.

 

[James Stone]

If you want more specific advice then you'd have to share a lot more about the particular project you are doing. Feel free to PM me if you like.

Great explanation! Thank you very much Alexander, I sincerely appreciate your advise. I will definitely consider Sony XDCAM EX F350 too as its workflow is user friendly in comparison to the red1 workflow which can be a nightmare especially without the extra gadgets.

Need to ask Redusers experience with CS5 without the Redrocket.

 

[michael zaletel]

HPX 500 is very, very soft. Softer than many current home video cameras. Barely 720p.

Haven't used 370.

EX3 is much better, a really nice camera for it's price. It's rather compressed 8 bit 4:2:0, which some people loathe, but it can produce very, very nice images regardless.

This said, Red one blows both out the water. Red one with MX sensor upgrade does so even more.

How does the EX3 look when recorded uncompressed to a hard disk? Substantially better or just marginally?

-michael zaletel

 

[James Stone]

The Adobe workflow is pretty simple, and if you have compatible hardware, the Mercury engine seems like it chews through footage pretty well. Just a few loose ends to tie up and Adobe will be right there leading the pack in terms of R3D. Avid catching up quick too, which is great. Apple, well, we'll know when we know.

R3Ds are relatively small for what they provide in terms of image quality. Every other format out there that uses heavy compression to squeeze into user friendly data sizes are compromised visually. A lot of them can look very good, even great especially under good lighting, but REDCODE is one of the most robust compressed codecs being used. When monitoring is done properly, comparisons between other codecs and Redcode start to show obvious advantages to shooting RED, in particular M-X and new color science.

Steve, can you please let me know the "compatible hardware" specifications and I don't mind shelling 5K for that if I can avoid redrocket.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I think this is changing a bit. Although Red Rocket is a bit costly for very small shops, for everyone else it spits out whatever flavor of offline/online video you need. Rocketcine was pretty darn stable for this task, and Redcine-X is getting there.

For those without the budget for Red Rockets or who choose not to use that type of workflow, Avid and Adobe have made some big progress in native R3D support. The Adobe workflow is pretty simple, and if you have compatible hardware, the Mercury engine seems like it chews through footage pretty well. Just a few loose ends to tie up and Adobe will be right there leading the pack in terms of R3D. Avid catching up quick too, which is great. Apple, well, we'll know when we know.

R3Ds are relatively small for what they provide in terms of image quality. Every other format out there that uses heavy compression to squeeze into user friendly data sizes are compromised visually. A lot of them can look very good, even great especially under good lighting, but REDCODE is one of the most robust compressed codecs being used. When monitoring is done properly, comparisons between other codecs and Redcode start to show obvious advantages to shooting RED, in particular M-X and new color science.

So, to me posting RED is less of an issue today as long as you use the right tools. And my guess is that once all three of the big NLEs offer stable, native R3D editing this will become one of the easiest codecs to work with which will make the transition to Scarlet even easier as the post side will have matured enough that it's as easy to work with as P2.

See that whole explanation, that didn't cover any details and still took like 4 paragraphs?

That's stupidly complex compared to shoot and post.

Take a look at XDCAM or ARRI Alexa workflow. Hmmm.... Shoot. Copy footage. Drop on timeline. Works in real time on almost any system you can buy today. Heck I can get decent ProRes & XDCAM performance on a G5 with FCP 6.

With RED you get a reward for your trouble, but it is definitely trouble. There is a reason Hollywood is gaga over a camera (Alexa) that is in some ways a step backwards from where RED is today.

Until its as easy to use RED media as it is to use ProRes and XDCAM, RED Workflow is a problem.

RAW 4k is wonderful, but its also ahead of its time. Just as we start catching up, RED raises the bar with the impending 5K cameras.

I think RED workflow won't be as easy as XDCAM or ProRes for some time, possibly years.

That's why a ProRes, or similar, output module/recorder for the Epic/Scarlet systems is so important.

 

[Jack Cooper]

Take a look at XDCAM or ARRI Alexa workflow. Hmmm.... Shoot. Copy footage. Drop on timeline. Works in real time on almost any system you can buy today. Heck I can get decent ProRes & XDCAM performance on a G5 with FCP 6.

Alexander,

Steve above mentions the Adobe platform. We are using the CS5/Mercury system and are pretty much finding a "shoot, copy footage, drop on timeline" workflow.

Currently we are operating on two cores on the original Matrox Axio-approved HP workstations (yes, a dinosaur, I know...) and I am getting "real-time" results at about 1/8 resolution.

I predict our shop will be exclusive Red within a year.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

See that whole explanation, that didn't cover any details and still took like 4 paragraphs?

That's stupidly complex compared to shoot and post.

Take a look at XDCAM or ARRI Alexa workflow. Hmmm.... Shoot. Copy footage. Drop on timeline. Works in real time on almost any system you can buy today. Heck I can get decent ProRes & XDCAM performance on a G5 with FCP 6.

With RED you get a reward for your trouble, but it is definitely trouble. There is a reason Hollywood is gaga over a camera (Alexa) that is in some ways a step backwards from where RED is today.

Until its as easy to use RED media as it is to use ProRes and XDCAM, RED Workflow is a problem.

RAW 4k is wonderful, but its also ahead of its time. Just as we start catching up, RED raises the bar with the impending 5K cameras.

I think RED workflow won't be as easy as XDCAM or ProRes for some time, possibly years.

That's why a ProRes, or similar, output module/recorder for the Epic/Scarlet systems is so important.

Boy, am I frustrated. I just had a very lengthy response to this go away in a heartbeat. Let me try again, this time I will copy just in case I get bumped off again. And sorry, it will be shorter because I just lost a lot of time. :-(

The solution kind of exists right now. I am editing a project in CS5 and even with my systems specs that don't meet the ideal specs from Adobe, I am getting very good results.

Mac Pro Quadcore 2.8ghz
16GB RAM
ATI 3870
Mac OS 10.6.3
CS5 with all current updates, including new RED importer (for new color science)

I have a RED 720P project playing off a cheap OWC FW800 drive very smoothly at 1/2 res. Source footage is 4K 16:9 23.98.

If I added a compatible video card (NVidia GTX 285 or 4800), the results would be even more amazing. Add a RAID and even better.

To add some perspective, I started with Avid in '95. Then Final Cut Pro version 1.0 and never really used Premiere for anything until CS4. So, I'm aware of what the other systems offer, and I'm also aware why some may be hesitant to try the Adobe NLE. However, I encourage everyone to try it. Leave behind all preconceived notions and give it a shot. Yes, there are still some features missing that may be deal breakers for some, but once they nail those, this may just become a MAJOR force in NLEs.

This is drag and drop editing. Copy files onto drive, drag them into PP, edit, and then finish in PP (if basic CC), send to After Effects (realtime not a factor), or export EDL/DPX and finish in high end tools.

Adobe is very close. Avid is doing some nice work as well. Apple, well...we'll see. But as Scarlet approaches, R3D editing will need to be easy, just like P2 and I feel like it's starting to get there.

Ugh, this is a lousy post compared to what I had before, I apologize. I have to check out, so I can't do this justice. If anyone has questions about this workflow, feel free to PM me. I'll try to respond in a reasonable timeframe.

Sorry guys....

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

How does the EX3 look when recorded uncompressed to a hard disk? Substantially better or just marginally?

-michael zaletel

Hard to say... I guess it depends on what you think the flaws are with the EX3 image.

First off, I have not recorded the camera uncompressed. The best I've done is an AJA ioHD to ProRes 422 HQ. Also I have tended to work with the EX1 more than the EX3, and I've only recorded the SDI ouput with the EX1.

Comparing the EX1 and EX3 briefly... they are the same. Same sensor block EXACTLY. Same menu options and settings. Even the same lens... only the EX3 lens is removable. There are subtle differences, and the EX3 is slightly softer out of the box. With good glass its sharper... but at that point you are looking at glass not the camera.

That said, if the bulk of the problems you see are in the XDCAM codec, then you are in for a treat... because the HD-SDI output is 10 bit 1080p 4:2:2 and very high quality.

Unless you need 4:4:4 or uncompressed this camera can satisfy when you record its output. I don't think it would be worthwhile to record ProRes 4444 from the EX cameras- you would just be wasting bits. ProRes HQ is worthwhile though

Provided of course you are happy with the sensor block.

Recording ProRes doesn't suddenly make the camera a 2/3" imager. Adding a Letus or similar adapter creates as many photographic issues as it solves. You still have a rolling shutter, the resultant skew and partial exposures.

If your issues are with the camera itself, then they will still be there.

The Sony F350 is a huge step. Its a 2/3" imager and that solves a lot of problems. If you can live with the remaining rolling shutter artifacts, then coupled with a good set of B4 lenses and an external recorder it is an excellent replacement for an F900 or other 2/3" HD camera pressed into cinema service.

I can't give a rating for the F350, when I shot it I was on the fly using a waveform (on a Panny monitor via HD-SDI) for exposure. I'd guess it was delivering at least ISO 800, but I was shooting 1080/60i and it didn't have my settings loaded- so I can't give a fair comparison.

These XDCAM EX cameras are actually quite good, and they are at an aggressive price point for Sony.