RED Workflow Rant

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Michael,

You have such a great way of relating these things. Your train analogy is perfect.

I think everyone would appreciate your knowledge on the subject of RED "workflows" and how you approach them. Like you, I'm always evolving, changing and experimenting my workflows. But you guys at Light Iron see a lot bigger projects than I do and a lot more of them. I personally would even love to read any comments on outdated workflows or things you tried that did not work. Who knows, you may have already tried and discarded one technique that I keep thinking about trying myself.

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

If you want to work with FCP and Color, or really any pipeline for high end color grade systems and you prefer to transcode selects in a high resolution, high bit depth format with Redcine-X, then this script is your friend: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42478

The notion that the H.264 proxy module is going to bring the workflow "up to that of 7d" is a scary thought. That is a huge step backwards. I get that is can be used to bake in a look and share with clients, but inevitably someone is going to use that to edit and finish with, and then we are not even scratching the surface of what this format is best at doing.

If CS5 works for you, then great. Prefer FCP... get to know the above script. I cut with camera proxies 90% of the time, then export an XML, then transcode selects in a custom color space, then color grade those in a Color session, then conform back to my timeline. I get 100% of the quality and sharpness of Red, at what ever resolution I need per shot. This workflow also works if you have prores transcodes to begin with for your offline.

This also works better for Color grading than linking to .R3D in Color since it reduces the aliasing that Color's secondary paths can cause by looking directly at the .R3D raw.

This workflow is not difficult... but it's powerful, gives you access to all the latitude you need, minimizes the RAM and HD space you need to finish at very high quality, and cost around $15.

 

[Rick Darge]

Or just get a fast Mac Pro and cut your footage in FCP using the proxies, then Send to Color. I've been doing this for over a year without any issues. It's my preferred method for personal projects and smaller jobs. I used to edit a lot but Red has changed that for me. Much better times in the sun, shooting! No more pasty skin and poor diet

 

[sander kamp]

I have to agree here. There were tools that worked great a year ago that don't work anymore.

From what I understand Clipfinder is still waiting for a RedLine that works. All Red tools have been abandoned (including RocketCine-X) and the only thing left is RedCine-X, which is so incredibly buggy that it feels more like a technology demonstration than a working product.

It doesn't help that information about the latest workflow is hard to find. What works with the MX sensor? What works with build 30? You have to dive deep into the forums to find that information.

 

[J. Eric Camp]

I am using clipfinder just fine.

 

[sander kamp]

I am using clipfinder just fine.

With the MX sensor? Last time I checked that didn't work.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

There is a new REDLINE that was recently updated with the other RED tools.

Clipfinder does work just fine. I said above that I don't use it, which is typically true, but I do play with it here and there and use it occasionally. And it does an amazing job for many tasks.

I've been using Redcine-x heavily the past few days (latest build 252). A few bugs and quirks for sure, but I haven't had any crashes on lengthy transcodes <knock on wood>. And it seems to be pretty solid. IMO, the interface still needs some work. Using RC-X without a Rocket is no fun though... Seems like it's still not as fast as the old Redcine used to be when running software only.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

A large part of what I do for a living is design, modify, and implement workflows for projects - both studios and independents. And while many of the good points brought up in this thread contain validity, I consistently observe a lack of understanding of RED that is letting people down - not the RED itself.

Michael knows a thing or two about RED and workflows. Just when I think I have a good handle on things, I talk to Michael and get reminded of how little I know.

Workflows are fickle. I don't even like that term, "workflow." They are like cars of a train - some have a dozen, some have a hundred. They move and change, and require constant modification. In fact, in working on hundreds of RED projects, it's extremely rare for my team to implement the exact same workflow twice. I kind of think of it like cracking an electronic safe:
When you find a number that works, you leave it. But concurrently you're trying out new numbers...one after the other...until you find another that works. When you hit a number that doesn't work, you make a note, and make a change.
As each component of a workflow falls into place, make a note as to the impact and evaluate its pros and cons. Use this combination as long as you can...that is until you come across a new safe requiring a new combination...

Good analogy and a lot of truth to that.

The second largest part of what I do for a living is educate (which I enjoy). For many people reading this thread, I ask that you take a serious look at attending REDucation this coming August. REDucation is not a week in which you will spend money reviewing what you already know. I promise (former REDucation attendees, please chime in REDucation touches each and every one of the issues brought up in this thread, discusses them, demonstrates them, and solves them.

I sat in for an hour or so in Las Vegas, and I can tell you, Michael, Steve, and others were giving that class an education. They gave me an education, and I was only there for an hour. Good stuff.

Answer me this: If I were to publish some of the workflows I've implemented on shows, (such as outlines, budgets, or flowcharts) would you find any benefit to reading them? For example, the comment about RED having 3 color sciences - in professional film and video, there are way more than 3 ways to interpret colors. I would die if I only had to worry about 3 ways to debayer So if I were to publish how we manage RED projects amidst the issues that have been brought up here, would that help? What if I posted some of the key workflow points we're doing on Pirates 4, or Social Network, would anyone find that useful for the community?
(maybe there is some offline REDucation we can do here on RU???)
m

Absolutely, this is a great idea, and I think people would be crazy to say no to this. Bring it on. Lots to learn, lots to discuss, and in the end it benefits everyone. Not only this Red community but even beyond, as the more we educate, the more work that will come in.

Workflow is not something new. I have been working in post since '95, one of my early jobs was taking apart Avids and rebuilding them when things would go down and we were constantly implementing, refining, perfecting various workflows for the post production pipeline. If you approach it logically and are willing to keep finding ways to unlock each new safe as Michael says, you will stay on top of things and you will solve your workflow dilemmas. If not, I highly recommend consulting with companies like Lightiron, Offhollywood and others who have blazed these trails and can help you get on track.

 

[Cal Brunker]

It has gotten muddier in the past 8 months than it was a year ago I think. As offensive as it is to my inner geek, I find I just process everything to prorez right away now and lose my ability to get the most of out of the RAW file. It kills me to do it, but it's bulletproof from their on out and that counts for a lot!

I'd love to be able to edit the proxies, send them to color and have access to the RAW files. That works up until it goes to Color and then you have to install clipfinder just to stop frozen frames etc. Come on.

I gotta blame Apple on this front. That's whack. Ps. put out a new Mac Pro already.

 

[David Battistella]

Bobby. This is with all due respect to you and this post is not aimed at you but it really got me thinking and it's a general state of mind I have had while reading through REDUSER lately.

***************************************************************

You know,

Thinking back about three years I have to say that m big cine choices were an HVX-200 or some P2 camera or an HDV camera that claimed to shoot cine style images. Maybe I could have saved up real good for a SONY or a VARICAM, so I could shoot 60FPS on B4 mount glass (where would that effing investment be today).

Then RED enters and gives people what we really had been asking for. A RAW CINE style camera that captures motion and up to 120fps.

When I went with RED I made it my business to understand everything there is to know about this camera (as any craftsman should) on both sides of the lens and all the way through post production. Part of that means going through some growing pains and part of that means understanding that we are part of a larger experiment, one that is rooted in the very idea of advancing the cause of high quality digital image making.

Now I might agree that P2 might be a slightly less painful workflow, but I have to say that if I put any image from my RED along side any P2 footage I have ever captured, I AM REALLY FUCKING GLAD I DECIDED TO CAPTURE EVERYTHING IN REDCOE RAW INSTEAD OF P2 over the past two years.

RED has provided everyone with any possible way to get footage from their REDCODE RAW system to STILL, QUICKTIME, DPX, FILM, or any other finishing medium.

To complain about the workflow is a complaint against the very logic of how the system is set up. RAW will always requie RAW processing tools, ask any photographer and they can attest to that.

People finish RED footage EVERY DAY in EVERY part of the world.

I personally would not have it any other way. RED provided me with a FREE tool, REDCINE-X, the provided third parties with an SDK (CLIPFINDER) and they have put out updates to all Apple products, AVID and ADOBE.

Just what the would anyone else have them do, build a REDROCKET into the camera (which they are essentially doing in the proxy modules).

Frankly, if workflow is not your thing or you want a 7d or 5D style shoot, edit thing then RED is the wrong tool for you.

If you want a professional imaging tool, with a professional workflow to extract the best possible images then, I believe, that is what RED is founded and built on. RED is a professional Digital Cinema company, that means RAW is the cornerstone of what they do and how they capture images.

Three years ago you needed a refridgerator size hard drive to capture uncompressed 4K and they came up with this technology called REDCODE RAW to allow you to have it on a small raid drive or a CF card. If you forget these basic principles then you miss the entire point of RED.

They sure do take a lot of crap around here, but let's not forget that a mere two years ago, other manufacturers didn't really give a pinch of a shit about this stuff until this company had the balls and financial backing to actually produce something. If they did, they certainly were not interesting in bringing it to the masses, by pricing it incredibly fairly and making it available to all.

Sorry for my rant, but I feel we need to be reminded sometimes that we are pretty lucky to have a dedicated team behind this product who, despite having to wade through shit storm after shit storm, continue to try to make even better products.

I don't care about the workflow, I care about the images and RED has delivered on that 14 times the size of some shitty P2 camera and with all the DOF that belong to an elite few (because of cost) for far to long.

David


anyone who wants to can continue this discussion here:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=619698#post619698

 

[jake blackstone]

I prefer to look at the changes in color science as something analogous to a new film stock. Whenever Kodak released the new film stock, nobody panicked, because it was all done by seasoned professionals. Labs knew how to process the film, post houses would get the new Kodak TAF film and they would correctly set up their telecine. Dailies would be done by experienced colorists, they would get edited and final grading from Cut list or EDL would be performed, if money were available. DP would test the new stock, determine the effective ASA and that would be it, simple...
Now, what is so different between the film and Red workflow? IMHO, the biggest difference is the fact, that majority of Red users determined to do everything by themselves. Almost all of my present clients already went through all this experimentation and had decided for themselves, that they would rather spend their time being productive, mainly shooting and editing. All they have to do is to shoot, edit and deliver to me EDL and RAW files along with offline QT copy and sound. They can edit any way they wish- proxies, transcode, directly with RAW...I don't care.
I haven't changed my workflow since pretty much day one. I conform, apply proper color science, pregrade and render DPX for finishing in my Lustre. When I grade in Lustre, all my material is correctly prepared, no matter where it came from- RED, D-21, D-5, Viper etc. I believe in always using correct tools for tasks that they were designed for and that is why I never have to cobble together new workflow. It is always works the same way for me. Frankly, I believe, all this confusion only helps pure post facilities, once people stop and realize, that savings aren't that big and they not worth the aggravation. Post houses aren't necessarily a bad thing.
And one final point. I never use QT for color grading, even uncompressed, if I can help it. I use it only for delivery and even then, I use something like AJA or BM codec. It's cross platform and there is never gamma or color shift. I don't like drama in color grading. That is why my company called MOD Color- MidOut Drama
My 2cents.

 

[J. Eric Camp]

As Jeff said. With proper tools installed clipfinder and QuickTime both work perfectly fine with mx footage. I don't see how anyone is truely impeeded.

As to color. Red has done their job. They put out the sdk as is evident in the implementation of it in various workflows. (avid and adobe for example).

Pissed that fcp isn't up to speed? Talk to apple.

 

[Steve Freebairn]

Jeff and others have had some great posts in this thread. Anyone that has been to REDucation or that I've talked to about RED knows that I'm crazy about Clipfinder. One of the easiest workflows for offline ever is the following.

Shoot RED One (MX or M) making sure to balance the protection of your highlight detail with shadow detail based on what is best for that particular scene (this could mean rating the MX camera in one shot at 320 and the next shot at 1280, it's very scene dependent if you want the absolute highest quality).

Copy R3Ds to multiple locations (I prefer R3DDM 5.4 at this exact moment)

Use Clipfinder to Watch one of the destinations from R3DDM. Again at this exact moment in time I don't use REDline from CF, but this will change soon
Use Clipfinder to send the clips you want to RCX bin and process everything to 1080p ProRes LT. As clips render, you can have CF monitor the export directory to ensure that clips render completely and so that you can keep track of what still needs to be done.

Import your clips into FCP and edit.

Export XML

Import into CF and use the conform feature to prep the project for Color or use CF to manage rendering a DPX sequence for another finishing app


Most people are far too concerned about editing with graded files. A few moments on set to properly set up the camera can mean that your offline files look great.


I really can't recommend Clipfinder too much, it really is the Swiss Army knife of post tools.


I can't compliment RED enough for all the advances that are coming out right now, people need to take the time to learn the tools before they say they don't work. RCX has made so much progress and is shaping up so nicely.

 

[Luca Immesi]

it really is the Swiss Army knife of post tools.

Ehi, I thought that was my quote
I did Reducation #1 and it was amazing. A massive concentration of information and best practices, the only downside was the coffee (no espresso . I think it's a great idea to share info about the workflows of the big productions. For people who need to edit in PP and then go into Color I think there's a way with clipfinder.

 

[David Battistella]

I have to say that aside from the RED tools, Clipfinder is, far and away the best all around tool to have in any RED post workflow.

It does SO MUCH.

Everything you need, on set and beyond.


David

 

[jake blackstone]

I think it's a great idea to share info about the workflows of the big productions.

Does anyone think, that any of the tools mentioned (Clipfinder, PP, RC-X etc) were used on those big productions? What's the point of knowing the workflow and tools used, if those tools are WAY out of reach?

 

[Eric Haase]

The RedcineX software is incredibly buggy. NONE of the DiTs i have worked with have been able to achieve realtime transcoding to Prores of RED 4khd footage as RED advertises with the red rocket card. The application frequently crashes. Sometimes it renders out a file without the look applied even though it displays the file and plays it in the app with the look. Honestly it's a huge pain in the ass when trying to work efficiently and RELIABLY. The monitor output on the camera doesnt match the look of the files that have the SAME metadata applied when viewed in RCX through a redrocket. There is no consistency. There is so much great untapped potential in the system but it doesn't work consistently and reliably. The color system is overcomplicated for most applications. I love the control but why call a fine ISO adjustment FLUT? Why not simplify all terminology and provide easy workable reliable solutions? I think a lot of people are attracted to the 5D because of it's simplicity. Easy to understand and familiar terminology, a very easy workflow with final cut (I'm looking at you canon fcp utility plugin), and what you see is what you get results all add up to an attractive EASY package. From my experience, there is a reputation in the industry that RED is unreliable and overly complicated. STILL. Even on the second generation sensor and build 30 of the firmware. Its still buggy. For me, its the best camera system for the price (to rent or buy) but it is becoming a tougher and tougher sell to a producer when they can get very similar results at a lower cost and with less headache. I hope RED doesn't take a defensive position about these criticisms but listens as the intention here is for improvement, success, and wide adoption. I enjoy shooting RED and raw but the software difficulties and color inconsistencies have grown tiresome.

On camera creation of ProRes or high quality (useable for broadcast finish) files is a must have for REDs next cameras to compete and be attractive in the marketplace.

 

[Tim Morten]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: there are multiple reliable simple workflows available right now. Adobe and Avid are the two that I can vouch for personally.

ProRes? Give me raw any day. I'm sure I will get flamed for saying this, but in my opinion, if you are serious about your images, you shouldn't be shooting video on a DSLR, and you shouldn't be grading in ProRes. Super8 cartridges were a lot more convenient that Super35 magazines too... convenience shouldn't trump quality (and frankly, with native R3D support in Adobe and Avid, you can have the best of both worlds).

I have to respect the claim that others have had bad experiences. I can only say that I have found Redcine-X to be eminently usable, and I have not encountered problems with consistency in look. Now that native R3D support is available, Redcine-X is a less essential part of the workflow anyway.

I'm all for griping when there's a problem. In my experience, today's workflow is not a problem. Shoot. Copy. Edit.

Final Cut support lagging behind is not Red's fault. Ditching Final Cut for CS5 or MC5 will benefit you in more ways than one...

Cheers,
Tim

 

[Luca Immesi]

Does anyone think, that any of the tools mentioned (Clipfinder, PP, RC-X etc) were used on those big productions? What's the point of knowing the workflow and tools used, if those tools are WAY out of reach?

I was amazed when I discovered how many big post house use Clipfinder, especially for logging and rushes.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I'd be surprised if Clipfinder is NOT part of many solutions... Certainly is here.