RED, what RED? Freshman questions

[Daniel Reed]

Hi Chris, I've recently had similar queries about film-making.

Hi guys, this is my first post here.
Im green as a cucumber to RED, but im a professional photographer slowly transcending to moving pictures...

I am by no means an expert/master.

As a photographer you may ask, whats the difference? A lot.

Here is a consensus of my recent advise:

First, why do i buy RED and Not Arri? Is it just a matter of taste, or is it also a matter of cost?

#1

RED, gives you more power over what you make of an image at a cost of time(initially, before you create your "style") - also qualifies demanding UHD/4K acquisition requirements (netflix)

Arri, can be picked up out of the crate and start being using w/ less knowledge of camera settings (ala canon stills), but offers less control in post

Both create amazing images of amazing scene setups.
Both create bad pictures of bad scene setups.

COST?
Its similar, with an edge towards RED in lower cost and the steal of a deal RED Raven.
Not counting Raven or Scarlet, very few pick RED or Arri based on cost, rather its a work-flow decision.
VVeapon vs Alexa
VVeapon 8K vs Alexa65

...if i want something in the range of roughly 24 to 2-300mm? If i only want to start with one lens, what do you recommend?

#2

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/...nses/ef/standard-zoom/ef-24-105mm-f-4l-is-usm
AND
http://mikasky.free.fr/foolcolor/foolcontrol-ios.html

Canon 24-105 F4 L IS ($600 as a white-box version) + foolcontrol iOS app for wireless focus/iris control and remote for most camera settings ($75-150 locked key, varies based red cam model).

There are absolutely better zoom options, and upwards of 20K (and well over) can be spent on a single one. The 24-105 L is a great starter, has commonly used prime lens points in its range, stopped down to 5.6/8 will be plenty sharp, and will help acclimate one to deeper focus cinematography. To those who cry out, "but I want shallow DOF", to that I answer, "learn to pull focus on moving targets at F4 then lets talk." To those that complain about only wanting to use natural or no lights, I turn a deaf ear. (just rent lights/etc as needed)

There are also some interesting cinema glass like rehousing jobs for the 24-105 L if you look around:

135 and longer can be problematic for video unless it is super locked down on a heavy pedestal/tripod/dolly-cart (minor jitter from even mild footsteps becomes super apparent)

What do i minimum need as a starter pack...

Consider:

Lighting for Film and Digital Cinematography 2nd Edition
by Dave Viera (Author), Maria Viera (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0534264980/
(buy a good used copy)


Strike the Baby and Kill the Blonde: An Insider's Guide to Film Slang
by Dave Knox (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400097592/


AND Any additional basic film production book or take a film school 101 class anywhere


A subscription to Cinematographer magazine
https://www.theasc.com/magazine/



Also Consider:
(for interests in, or to gain appreciation of, narrative film-making)

Story: Substance, Structure, Style and the Principles of Screenwriting
by Robert McKee (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/Story-Substance-Structure-Principles-Screenwriting/
(horrible dust jacket cover - remove it and throw the cover away)


Save The Cat! The Last Book on Screenwriting You'll Ever Need
by Blake Snyder (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/Save-Last-Book-Screenwriting-Youll/
(don't hate, compare/contrast w/ McKee)


AND Any additional story writing or screenwriting book, could be anything, the point is to contrast/compare.

The HULK book is a popular point of reference in some circles:
Screenwriting 101 by Film Crit Hulk!
https://www.amazon.com/Screenwriting-101-Film-Crit-Hulk-ebook/

David Trottier wrote a Bible that is common for screen writing classes:
The Screenwriter's Bible: A Complete Guide to Writing, Formatting, and Selling Your Script
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1935247026/

Debra Dixon wrote a little gem that is a great easy to read primer:
GMC: Goal, Motivation and Conflict: The Building Blocks of Good Fiction
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0965437108/

Thanks in advance!

You're welcome and welcome to reduser :thumbsup:

+1 Oh, by the way, let me post my reel! lol

My reel? Its a group with allot of members sharing their work, not my work, fancy pants.
You guys really have too much time on your hands the way you sit here and just being arrogant, i wonder if your talents is as big as your mouth, usually its a compensation for other things
I will not waste more time here...

Terry was on my ignore list for a long while for exactly this.

Remember there are trolls, loudmouths, and a-hole mansplainers on every forum and in every walk of life.
Please don't construe that statement as condescending in tone.
Simple friendly reminders are helpful, a big to myself included.

I hope my write-up above was helpful, and the best of luck to you in your creative endeavours.

 

[Brody_B]

My reel? Its a group with allot of members sharing their work, not my work, fancy pants.
You guys really have too much time on your hands the way you sit here and just being arrogant, i wonder if your talents is as big as your mouth, usually its a compensation for other things
I will not waste more time here...

Don't get disheartened bud, there are a ton of very helpful and genuinely good people here. If you stick around you will see more and more of that. I think theres also a general understanding to do your own research and show that you have tried to figure things out on your own somewhat before you ask others to do the busy work for you. Not trying to say that is exactly what you did, but things could have be construed as that, and maybe why you got some of the responses you did.

A quick overview of what direction you can go with Red is...

Basically you have 2 cheaper camera body/brain options. Raven $5k shoots 4.5k and Scarlet-W $10k shoots 5k. they both essentially have the same processing power so you will achieve the same compression rates at the same frame rate options for each. Both cameras use smaller parts of the same sensor as Reds flagship camera the weapon, but the compression rates are higher. Still the footage is incredible, and I can guarantee the Red options are the best bang for the buck out there right now. There other smaller differences between these 2 cameras but I wont go into that right now, matter of fact there a a ton of other posts that go into great deal about this, search button is up on the right.

The only things you will need to add to a brain to get up an filming is a red-mini mag, touch display, and a module to receive power and get other useful connections to and from your brain. Modules come in many different forms so that you can chose the one or ones that suit your needs best.

These tools will also answer even more detailed questions you might have. http://www.red.com/tools/crop-factor

If you put your money down on a brain that will get you started in the Q and from there you can research and order the necessary module components for your needs while you wait for your camera purchase to get allocated.

I hope this helps ya out a bit. take care

 

[Martin Weiss]

Thank you for turning this civil again.

Chris, sorry for the harsh welcome. This is not how we do things over here. If you do stick around, you'll find helpful and considerate information. Do feel free to shoot me a PM if any member should harass you again.

 

[M.Halsell]

That was harsh?

 

[Chris Dahl]

Thanks Phil, finally a helpful answer.

About the budget, i feel its more like, its already way out of it, and that you just have to find the money for what you need, and then consider.
Would you recommend buying used Epic or Dragon, or will the second hand price end up more or less the same as after tax deduction from new gear?

Appart from resolution, is there any other big differences between the new and old gen DSMC?

Are the parts and components from the prev gen still compatible with the new?
Im thinking 4K will still be sufficient enough for most clients a couple of years more, and if not, i can rent the newer models when needed, until it will be cheaper to buy rather than keep renting.

If you were to buy two lenses, one zoom, and one prime, what would you choose? A zoom up till 200mm, starting from around 80-100mm, and what focal length would you choose for prime, the ones with big bang for buck?
Are there any "cheaper" solutions to start with, like modifying pro SLR lenses with gears etc? or Other old cinematic lenses that still delivers.
Like i mentioned earlier, i would mostly be doing aerial and vehicle shots, that doesnt require closeups.

Chris

 

[Chris Dahl]

And thanks to the other guys for your recent posts, very much appreciated

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Jumping in, trying to answer some of your questions:

Appart from resolution, is there any other big differences between the new and old gen DSMC?

Resolution isn't the real factor here between the two:

DSMC Dragon
Scarlet 5K motion / 6K stills
EPIC 6K motion

DSMC2 Dragon
Raven 4.5K motion
Scarlet-W 5K motion
Weapon 6K or 8K motion

I must add that Raven 4.5K is a bit confusing as it's more like a 4K wide sensor. Raven has a 4K sensor in height with added width for a 2.1:1 aspect ratio, whereas the 4.5K of the other cameras is scaled proportionally with more pixel height at the same width. That means that the 4.5K in Raven is somewhat smaller than the 4.5K with Scarlet-W / Weapon / Epic-X Dragon. In other words: the Raven 4.5K is fixed to the aspect ratio. Changing that would make it 4K - if that makes sense...
Raven 4.5K 2.1:1
4608 x 2160 px / 23.04 x 10.8 mm

Scarlet-W / Weapon 4.5K 2:1
4608 x 2304 px / 23.04 x 11.52 mm

Also: check out Phil's cheat sheets and his website for more detailed information

DMSC2 in comparison to DSMC has
better R3D compression
added ProRes & DNxHR recording
more FPS / HFR
smaller form factor, less weight
3rd party modules
3D LUT support
and then some...

Are the parts and components from the prev gen still compatible with the new?

Yes and no
DSMC2 only takes RED minimags, DSMC can use both mini-mags and the 1.8" mags but you need the corresponding SSD-module –*mini-mag vs 1.8" mag difference in GB and r/w speed (compression)
Screens and viewfinder work with adapters
Side-handle and modules do not work interchangeably.
REDVOLT XL and V-Mounts are being used on both, but battery modules won't work except the V-Mount belt clip (Anton Bauer gold mount is an option with 3rd party gear)

Im thinking 4K will still be sufficient enough for most clients a couple of years more, and if not, i can rent the newer models when needed, until it will be cheaper to buy rather than keep renting.

Best guess with upgradeability and budget in mind might be the Scarlet-W.
Cheapest is the Raven (fixed Canon EF Mount)
Both have a long waiting list: probably fall-ish!? Check the June Update Post from Jarred.
If you get a DSMC, get one with a mini-mag side module.



Cheers

 

[Terry VerHaar]

That was harsh?

Rght.

I dunno - seems to me like the vitriolic response to some teasing was what was "harsh."

 

[M.Halsell]

Rght.

I dunno - seems to me like the vitriolic response to some teasing was what was "harsh."

The group+moderator response is correct, no one should be bristled over asking simple questions of camera and lenses on a public venue. Good to see the OP ignored the nonsense.

 

[Keegan@Netflix]

Chris,

Not sure where you are located but we do a lot of free workshops at our Retail locations and it allows you to get your hands on our gear or we can get you setup with a local dealer to have a better understanding of what a basic kit would look like. Just PM if you are interested.

Hi guys, this is my first post here.
Im green as a cucumber to RED, but im a professional photographer slowly transcending to moving pictures, and want more than a Blackmagic camera, partly cause of the clients demand and expectations (ill share my plans later) but i have NO clue on what to buy and what i need, so all tips are welcome.
First, why do i buy RED and Not Arri? Is it just a matter of taste, or is it also a matter of cost?

What do i minimum need as a starter pack, if i want something in the range of roughly 24 to 2-300mm? If i only want to start with one lens, what do you recommend?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Chris Dahl]

Hi Chris, I've recently had similar queries about film-making.



I am by no means an expert/master.

As a photographer you may ask, whats the difference? A lot.

Here is a consensus of my recent advise:




#1

RED, gives you more power over what you make of an image at a cost of time(initially, before you create your "style") - also qualifies demanding UHD/4K acquisition requirements (netflix)

Arri, can be picked up out of the crate and start being using w/ less knowledge of camera settings (ala canon stills), but offers less control in post

Both create amazing images of amazing scene setups.
Both create bad pictures of bad scene setups.

COST?
Its similar, with an edge towards RED in lower cost and the steal of a deal RED Raven.
Not counting Raven or Scarlet, very few pick RED or Arri based on cost, rather its a work-flow decision.
VVeapon vs Alexa
VVeapon 8K vs Alexa65




#2

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/...nses/ef/standard-zoom/ef-24-105mm-f-4l-is-usm
AND
http://mikasky.free.fr/foolcolor/foolcontrol-ios.html

Canon 24-105 F4 L IS ($600 as a white-box version) + foolcontrol iOS app for wireless focus/iris control and remote for most camera settings ($75-150 locked key, varies based red cam model).

There are absolutely better zoom options, and upwards of 20K (and well over) can be spent on a single one. The 24-105 L is a great starter, has commonly used prime lens points in its range, stopped down to 5.6/8 will be plenty sharp, and will help acclimate one to deeper focus cinematography. To those who cry out, "but I want shallow DOF", to that I answer, "learn to pull focus on moving targets at F4 then lets talk." To those that complain about only wanting to use natural or no lights, I turn a deaf ear. (just rent lights/etc as needed)

There are also some interesting cinema glass like rehousing jobs for the 24-105 L if you look around:

135 and longer can be problematic for video unless it is super locked down on a heavy pedestal/tripod/dolly-cart (minor jitter from even mild footsteps becomes super apparent)





Consider:

Lighting for Film and Digital Cinematography 2nd Edition
by Dave Viera (Author), Maria Viera (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0534264980/
(buy a good used copy)


Strike the Baby and Kill the Blonde: An Insider's Guide to Film Slang
by Dave Knox (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400097592/


AND Any additional basic film production book or take a film school 101 class anywhere


A subscription to Cinematographer magazine
https://www.theasc.com/magazine/



Also Consider:
(for interests in, or to gain appreciation of, narrative film-making)

Story: Substance, Structure, Style and the Principles of Screenwriting
by Robert McKee (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/Story-Substance-Structure-Principles-Screenwriting/
(horrible dust jacket cover - remove it and throw the cover away)


Save The Cat! The Last Book on Screenwriting You'll Ever Need
by Blake Snyder (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/Save-Last-Book-Screenwriting-Youll/
(don't hate, compare/contrast w/ McKee)


AND Any additional story writing or screenwriting book, could be anything, the point is to contrast/compare.

The HULK book is a popular point of reference in some circles:
Screenwriting 101 by Film Crit Hulk!
https://www.amazon.com/Screenwriting-101-Film-Crit-Hulk-ebook/

David Trottier wrote a Bible that is common for screen writing classes:
The Screenwriter's Bible: A Complete Guide to Writing, Formatting, and Selling Your Script
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1935247026/

Debra Dixon wrote a little gem that is a great easy to read primer:
GMC: Goal, Motivation and Conflict: The Building Blocks of Good Fiction
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0965437108/





You're welcome and welcome to reduser :thumbsup:







Terry was on my ignore list for a long while for exactly this.

Remember there are trolls, loudmouths, and a-hole mansplainers on every forum and in every walk of life.
Please don't construe that statement as condescending in tone.
Simple friendly reminders are helpful, a big to myself included.

I hope my write-up above was helpful, and the best of luck to you in your creative endeavours.

Daniel, i didnt see your post before now, thanks for an awesome and detailed write-up, it gave me allot more usefull info to consider
And yes, i agree with you on the troll part too, every forum always have those

Cheers Chris

 

[Chris Dahl]

Chris,

Not sure where you are located but we do a lot of free workshops at our Retail locations and it allows you to get your hands on our gear or we can get you setup with a local dealer to have a better understanding of what a basic kit would look like. Just PM if you are interested.

Michael, would love to take you up on that offer, but im afraid im on the other side of the pond

 

[Keegan@Netflix]

Are you in Norway?

We have international dealers, both specialize in stills and motion.

Michael, would love to take you up on that offer, but im afraid im on the other side of the pond

 

[Chris Dahl]

Yes sir! Just south of Oslo.

 

[Chris Dahl]

Canon 24-105 F4 L IS ($600 as a white-box version) + foolcontrol iOS app for wireless focus/iris control and remote for most camera settings ($75-150 locked key, varies based red cam model).

There are absolutely better zoom options, and upwards of 20K (and well over) can be spent on a single one. The 24-105 L is a great starter, has commonly used prime lens points in its range, stopped down to 5.6/8 will be plenty sharp, and will help acclimate one to deeper focus cinematography. To those who cry out, "but I want shallow DOF", to that I answer, "learn to pull focus on moving targets at F4 then lets talk." To those that complain about only wanting to use natural or no lights, I turn a deaf ear. (just rent lights/etc as needed)

There are also some interesting cinema glass like rehousing jobs for the 24-105 L if you look around:

Daniel, ive had the 24-105 for some years now, my first choice for traveling with just one lens.
Tried to look up rehousing, but couldnt find anything, could you point me in some direction here?
Are there other Canon lenses that can also be rehoused for cinema use?

 

[Keegan@Netflix]

Hi Chris,

Either team below are great. The Inerfoto guys come from a traditional still world so that might be a good first choice but again either team is great!
Interfoto-
+47 97 11 55 00
Drammensveien 130
Bygg C-14
Oslo
0277
Norway

Video 4 AS - Oslo
+47 56 90 42 10
Kjelsåsveien 174
Oslo
0884
Norway

Yes sir! Just south of Oslo.

 

[Daniel Reed]

Daniel, ive had the 24-105 for some years now, my first choice for traveling with just one lens.
Tried to look up rehousing, but couldnt find anything, could you point me in some direction here?
Are there other Canon lenses that can also be rehoused for cinema use?

Chris,

Off the top of my head, Cinematics does this for several Canon lenses:
http://www.pchood.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=45_63

For the 24-105 L, the whole sha-bang can be purchased for $1250, or they ship the parts for $800 as a DIY cine-mod kit:
http://www.pchood.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=45_63&product_id=308


Address:
CINEMATICS & PCHOOD 派虎影艺 粤ICP备09039800号
Room B3005, Stars Plaza, North Huaqiang Road, Futian District, Shenzhen, P.R.C
深圳市福田区华强北路群星广场B3005
Telephone:
+86 18925272687,+86 18925272667


Fax:
+86-755-83768602


E-mail:
info@pchood.com


QQ:
1981067423,1820524775,184731.


MSN:
pincinematics@msn.cn


I have no experience with Cinematics, thus I can't vouch either way. (I am considering it for a 24-105)
If you do try them out make sure to request a V2 modification - and let us know how it goes!
(yes, lenses can be sent to them and they will do all the conversion work, much like other shops)


DuclosLenses do cine-mods:
https://www.ducloslenses.com/pages/cine-mod

Being located in CA the same as me, I've used them a lot - David runs a great team.
They recommend the Canon 24-70 as a zoom for their cine-mod process.



If you use FoolControl on an iOS device (iphone/ipad) you can totally just use the 24-105 you already own as-is to wirelessly follow focus
FoolControl uses the auto focus motors inside Canon photo glass to allow for pulling focus - no FF knob or gearing needed


On a side note:
(great inexpensive lights to own)

I recently picked up an 18" FloLight Blade open-face LED light, and I can't possibly recommend them enough (plan to get more):
http://www.flolight.com/bladelight-1/
(purchased as part of a reduser group buy for $100 off - another great reason to stay active on this forum)

 

[Brody_B]

Thanks Phil, finally a helpful answer.

About the budget, i feel its more like, its already way out of it, and that you just have to find the money for what you need, and then consider.
Would you recommend buying used Epic or Dragon, or will the second hand price end up more or less the same as after tax deduction from new gear?

Appart from resolution, is there any other big differences between the new and old gen DSMC?

Are the parts and components from the prev gen still compatible with the new?
Im thinking 4K will still be sufficient enough for most clients a couple of years more, and if not, i can rent the newer models when needed, until it will be cheaper to buy rather than keep renting.

If you were to buy two lenses, one zoom, and one prime, what would you choose? A zoom up till 200mm, starting from around 80-100mm, and what focal length would you choose for prime, the ones with big bang for buck?
Are there any "cheaper" solutions to start with, like modifying pro SLR lenses with gears etc? or Other old cinematic lenses that still delivers.
Like i mentioned earlier, i would mostly be doing aerial and vehicle shots, that doesnt require closeups.

Chris

If you list what you can afford that would help us understand what camera range you are talking about. The older Dragons you are referring to aren't anywhere near "more or less the same price after tax" as the newer S-W's or Raven's, they are around $25k where as the new Raven is $5k plus accessories. You are throwing out a very wide target right now. Same with lenses, we don't know if you want to go big or bend a quarter on some L glass. There are so many different options out there, mostly relating to price.