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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red "Weapon" Name Poll - Change it or not?

Red "Weapon" Name Poll - Change it or not?

  • Keep the name "Weapon"

    Votes: 91 17.5%

  • Please change the name

    Votes: 339 65.2%

  • I could care less what the name is

    Votes: 90 17.3%
  • Total voters
    520
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I don't think that the way the name is displayed on the camera (or not at all) matters.
It will be in every article, on every gear list, in every conversation and a part of every joke.

Again, I'd love the name to match the miracle of this camera's insides, not diminish it.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Jeff - you are an incredibly smart guy... brilliant, I would guess. But this is all about regular old statistics. Not really rocket science. That's where Daniel is getting his information.
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Well, thanks for the compliment. I was just questioning how he arrived at a calculated margin of error when that very figure is an assertion based on confidence of a purely randomized sample. Something we do not have here. I can attest to that as I am able to see some things as moderator that others can not see. On the other thing, that probably should make me ineligible to cast a vote, but that's neither here nor there at this point. Because this poll does tell us something...

It is not a perfect environment for polling but there are sciences that can be drawn upon for this.
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It is indeed an imperfect environment and I still maintain the poll itself is flawed by splitting one side of the coin into two options. And yes, there are "sciences" of sorts or more precisely there are analytical means by which to attempt assertions, perhaps even quantizations, of this data. Not sure how useful or meaningful any of it is, but as has been pointed out, it's all we have to work with for now. No matter how we slice it, this poll shows [as of this post] that there are 178 registered accounts to these forums that have voiced a name change is in order. Out of the 52087 currently registered and active member accounts on these forums, that means 0.342% have voted for a name change. Make of that what you will. I think the key point here is that there are at the very least, 178 people at this moment who feel strongly enough about the name to have RED consider their feelings on the matter.

It is my observation that the most aggressive and dismissive side here has been those who seem to think an opposition to the name is wimpy or weak or just whiny. I think those who have objected to the name have actually, for the most part, stated a thoughtful case in a respectful manner.
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I share those observations as well and I don't understand the aggressively dismissive attitudes. There has been a fair bit of aggression from both sides of the coin here, you should see some of the comments in my PM box. ;) But I have to agree with you that some of the more aggressive attitudes are coming from those championing the name. I've stated before that I don't have a problem with the name. It seems to be fitting in consideration of RED's own history and attitude. OTOH, I don't care what they name it, I really don't. Product names do very little for me and I've owned far too many gadgets over the years that use overly-dramatic, violent or militaristic names for no reason other than marketing jazz or pure shock and awe. On that note, I don't give a crap. And in a logical sense, it should not matter what the camera is named because that has no effect on what it does.

It's obvious that several people have a problem with the name. And I fully respect that. I agree with you that most have presented their opinions in a civil and respectful way. I can assure you that these threads and the posts within, even this poll, are all considered. I'm confident that RED will ultimately do what they feel best for their user community as a whole and they are not shy about how the market their products.
 
Daniel Stilling said:
Everywhere online when there's mention of the new camera, all you see is either despise for the name or jokes about it. It's actually pretty embarrassing.
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Mission accomplished.
 
I am familiar with the word "shoot" and "shooting" being used as metonyms for filming / taking pictures. But applying the same kind of terminology / figure of speech to an evf as being a "bomb" just beacuase the RED design makes it simular in shape and form, "assault" in the connation of a piece harware being used in warfare (which implies that filmmaking is just another form of making war), and "weapon" for the camera as a tool to film something or someone, gives me nothing but bad vibes using just those very same words, that is "a shoot" and "shooting". On the other hand, a word like "Dragon" cuts to the very core of filmmaking as an art form, at least for me, since it so directly connects with the concept of movies being "the stuff which dreams are made of". Please RED, think of another term, something that is as epical as "Dragon" or "Epic" itself and something that can live up to brilliance and courageousness of being RED.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
It's obvious that several people have a problem with the name. And I fully respect that. I agree with you that most have presented their opinions in a civil and respectful way. I can assure you that these threads and the posts within, even this poll, are all considered. I'm confident that RED will ultimately do what they feel best for their user community as a whole and they are not shy about how the market their products.
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Well said J.
 
Daniel Stilling said:
It's actually pretty embarrassing.
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I look at it this way. Shit on my work. Shit on my talent. Shit on whatever. But if it comes down to me feeling embarrassed about what they named the camera of choice. What? Am I going to have to only wear Levi's to set, or dress how they want me too or whatever. If the best thing they can pick on is the name, then it's not the name that is immature, its the folks that judge you because you use a camera with a certain name.

If someone said to me, "hey, is that your weapon?" with the wrong tone, they I am sure I would tell them where to go.

RED is a small company, I am sure they do not have anywhere near ARRIgroups marketing and promotion budget. They have to succeed in brand awareness in other ways.

People are talking about it, that might be the idea, I don't know. I can like or not like the name, but I'm not going to be (me personally offended by or) defined by it.

Its a box with a sensor and electronics in it, with some graphics on the outside. The label is far less important than the specs.

Battistella
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Two points to this (regardless of the name itself)

1) Jarred probably was joking when asking for the vote (sorry, this is an asumption, but it is based on #2)
2) RED is not at all a democratic environment, but a top-down business where Jim and Jarred (in that order) pulls the shots, so to speak.

And reduser is often refered toas "their house".

The poll has a bit of interest to me. To poll the engagement and tendency. As I am curious.
But I am afraid it is a pretty academic rehearsal.
Not a democratic movement.

And if I am to fight for democratic principles (which I happen to think are good), I would spend that energy on something that really could have an effect. Not on a cameraname.
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With all due respect yes and no. They can be as top-down as they like, but as the case for any consumer company, they also have no choice but to listen to their customers, and I have observed that they very much try to to deliver what the majority seems to want, and use this forum to gain more insight into what that is and what issues people are having. You can't run a successful business by trying to dictate to customers what they should want, and they don't.
 
As I've said before, Weapon would not have been my first choice. The tricky bit is almost all of the alternate suggestions I've seen are terrible. Everybody thinks they have a cool idea for a name like everybody thinks their taste in music is awesome.

My point is it's harder than it seems and I'm glad some of you weren't involved in the naming process. ;-)

With that out of the way...

For kicks, try to think about the word "Weapon" beyond the testosterone charged, needlessly aggressive or dumbness many of you think it represents. Despite your misgivings, how might the name Weapon be a positive thing?

In that sense, to me, this debate comes down to art - the art of language, the art of communication, the art of branding and, of course, the art of filmmaking.

Language is complex, nuanced and malleable. The same word can be used to help or hinder. I can say "Sweetheart" as a term of endearment or to condescend. I can be literal or figurative. "Weapon" generally has a negative connotation but it's also generic enough to remain flexible in its usage.

Not every fight is about violence. Not every battle calls for loss of life. Not every war is waged on the basis of human destruction. And so not every weapon is designed to cause harm.

I get conscientious objection. But would you refuse to donate money to a worthwhile and reputable charity because it stated a new treatment can be used as another weapon in the arsenal to fight the war against cancer? Are you opposed to schools that encourage their students to arm themselves with an education?

The nature of language allows us to change meaning depending on context. Anything can be used as a weapon. Put a top handle on an Epic for a good grip and you can crack some skulls. The beauty of language is that it can turn the terminology of turmoil and conflict on its head. Literature is full of this.

Movies have always explored the dichotomy between the ugliness and artistry of violence. Kingsman: The Secret Service is the latest example. In fact, there's no shortage of violent movies on AFI's top 100 list.

Obviously, RED knows the name is inflammatory. I'd hope it goes deeper than just trying to piss people off. Can you take an artistic tool that's clearly not designed to be a weapon, call it that and change that word's energy such that the product seems aptly named? I guess we'll see.
 
I'm not a fan of the naming eitheir not really elegant.
But I always tape the Red brand to be more low profile and discreet anyway.
The Red logo and brand tend to atract people to much for my taste ;)

10941850_10205657643026738_3900655619088940859_n.jpg


B.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
No matter how we slice it, this poll shows [as of this post] that there are 178 registered accounts to these forums that have voiced a name change is in order. Out of the 52087 currently registered and active member accounts on these forums, that means 0.342% have voted for a name change.
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That's one way of putting it.

Another is that out of 288 people who voiced their thoughts and feelings 62% have voted against.

Balanced poll (not focused only on a particular group) is based on a voting body and does not have a tendency of bringing completely opposite results with enlargement of that body. It serves to provide some kind of reference about the non-voting body and a larger scale, because reaching everyone is practically impossible. That is its purpose.

If one is negating poll's validity simply by guessing what is outside the voting body, one is doing the whole poll thing ass-backwards and poll's purpose is wasted.

Jeff Kilgroe said:
I share those observations as well and I don't understand the aggressively dismissive attitudes.
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Parameters for the calculation which may help in understanding:
.
A = "Weapon"- term globally (not subjectively) representing aggression, destruction, death, fear, suffering. Defined and deeply rooted within local and global subconscious through thousands of years of human history. Coming at your TV daily. To many in their back yards or foreheads.

B = "Camera"- term globally representing a tool of creation, expression, preservation, communication. Defined and deeply rooted within subconscious through last hundred years. (Although sometimes misused as a weapon of mass deception.)

C = Provocation - tends to provoke, catalyst for tensions

D = Creative professionals in film and video - people with sensibility, visualization abilities, experience and defined set of criteria, expressive by nature

E = Forum - online public place of global thought and emotion exchange
​
_________________________________________________________

A x B x C x D x E = ?



Jeff Kilgroe said:
Product names do very little for me and I've owned far too many gadgets over the years that use overly-dramatic, violent or militaristic names for no reason other than marketing jazz or pure shock and awe. On that note, I don't give a crap. And in a logical sense, it should not matter what the camera is named because that has no effect on what it does.
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The usefulness of logic also depends on the scope of its premises.

Scope expansion potential:

- Camera doesn't do. Human does. Camera is a tool which enables doing it. Without intent and action it is a brick.
- Intent and action are based on thought and emotion.
- Thought and emotion are energy forms.
- Words posses energy properties affecting thought and emotion.
- Symbols affect minds, even more so in a symbol-based professional creative realm.
- Creative professionals pick creative tools which resonate well with them.
- Pixel count is inferior to resonance.
- Negative associations, vibes and talks have a cumulative negative effect on the project which sparks them.
- This matter was discussed before, brought forth as a potential issue by many, ignored and consequently brought underestimation, prejudice and bad rep towards this project.
 
The new branding Weapon will do marvels for locally based rental dealers. At least that's how I would go about working abroad. It could be a real pain trying to entre any foreign country, and perhaps especially the States, carrying a bag with a Weapon, a couple of Mags, an Assault pack plus a Bomb EVF.
 
I didnt think I would care about what the name would be and I'm certainly not going to argue that it should be changed, it's not my company. Im sure they had a long educated disucssion about it and for fun wanted to call it weapon.

But to me it doesnt sound as sexy as Epic or Dragon, which as a product doesnt make a difference but as a marketing or experience factor weapon as a word doesnt really roll of the tongue like Dragon or Epic. I was hoping for something like Titan that rolls of the tongue, feels big, feels similar to the naming convention on Epic and Dragon in what it hints and portrays to customers and clients.

I wont be able to upgrade to Weapon any time soon so it's not going to affect me as a customer, as we are just sorting out our first Epic to Dragon upgrade - but as someone who really likes branding and marketing - Im not too fond of it at the moment. Most people seem to be kind of making fun of the name such as "at least Arri didnt call their camera the Grenade" - which I guess any publicity is great for RED but I just feel the name is a bit too military based and shoving it down your throat where as RED Mags, BOMB EVF to me where more subtle and I liked it like it.

Anyway thats my two cents, to add to this sea of opinions :)

Either way RED keep up the awesome, I honestly cannot wait to see what the Weapon has in store for us and hope that it changes the industry all over again!

Jonny
 
If it was just the name displayed on the camera then I guess duct tape would be the answer.

But the name will also be on every invoice, customs declaration, import/export documents. Customs officers might not know what a DMSC is but they probably know 'red' and 'weapon'. I think it is fair enough to assume this will cause problems for some foreign customers of RED.

I agree with the suggestion 'W'. We all know what it stands for and people can still call it weapon they but at least it won't cause any problems.
 
Carl Dieker said:
I would be fine with just
W
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I have another proposal.


Why don't we just call it "Bottomless Pit" instead?



Becasuse that's what buying into an overly accessorized universe of constantly changing technology this all is anyhow.
:gun::emote_hanged:
 
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