RED VV V-Raptor 8K Vs. Venice 2 8.6K

[Nick Vera]

Recently did a test once again with the VV V-Raptor. This time the competitor was the Venice 2 8.6K. Enjoy!


RED VV V-Raptor 8K 17:9 Vs Sony Venice 2 8.6K 3:2
Yesterday, with the help of some of my friends we did overs and unders at The Camera Division with the Venice 2 and VV V-Raptor.
Both cameras were back-focused correctly. That was something that we were adamant about.
To keep things simple I will just be posting the overs and unders where the cameras start breaking. Both cameras were rated at ISO 800 and lit the same.
The Venice 2 was also rated at the second native ISO of 3200. The VV-Raptor was rated at ISO 2000. There are rumors that 2000 is the proper native ISO for the V-Raptor since it evenly distributes information more correctly amongst shadows and highlights.
I also did a quick color match test. Got them as close as I can in under 5 min. Can tweak more and get it more precise, but the differences are less than shooting on different batches of the same film stock. So I'm personally not going to obsess over it.
The takeaways: Both cameras performed better in the highlights at higher ISOs.
Out of both cameras the RED V-Raptor retained highlights the best at ISO 2000 even at +5. Pay attention to the white cloth on the left and stand in's skin. Shadows were also better on the VV V-Raptor at both ISOs than the Venice 2. Saying that noise was more prominent at ISO 2000 than ISO 800.
When it comes to resolving detail and sharpness, the Venice 2 is the clear winner.
For sharpness both cameras were tested with two Tokina Cinema Vista Primes lenses, both 50mm and 85mm at T8, same distance from the chart. As you can see, one camera's sensor is taller than the other. The other sensor is wider than the other.
My takeaways are(including my previous tests with the Alexa35), if you are looking for the most resolving detail and sharpness out of the camera the order is:

1. Venice 2 8.6K
2. VV V-Raptor 8K
3. Alexa 35

For useable Dynamic Range:

1. Alexa 35
2. VV V-Raptor 8K
3. Venice 2 8.6K

I would put more images, but unfortunately Facebook is being a bit difficult.
Hope this information helps! Cheers!







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[rand thompson]

Thanks for doing this Test Nick with another top competitor of the Red V- Raptor!


Edit :

I wondering if Sony was doing any in-camera sharpening since I believe no Red Camera does.Maybe that's the reason for the Sony appearing to be sharper.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Thanks for doing this Test Nick with another top competitor of the Red V- Raptor!


Edit :

I wondering if Sony was doing any in-camera sharpening since I believe no Red Camera does.Maybe that's the reason for the Sony appearing to be sharper.

I dont think it does.It just a better sensor.
Add best sharpening method on Raptor footage its not even gonna come close to Venice sharpness.Its like day and night difference ( or VHS to DVD )

 

[rand thompson]

I dont think it does.It just a better sensor.
Add best sharpening method on Raptor footage its not even gonna come close to Venice sharpness.Its like day and night difference ( or VHS to DVD )

Thanks for your Input Kemalettin. I guess I was associating the In-camera sharpening methods found in some of the Sony Mirrorless cameras with the Sony Venice 2.

 

[Leonardo Newman]

I dont think it does.It just a better sensor.
Add best sharpening method on Raptor footage its not even gonna come close to Venice sharpness.Its like day and night difference ( or VHS to DVD )

how do you conclude it’s a better sensor? Yes it resolves better, but raptor has better DR, less noise and still resolves better than Alexa 35, so how are you arriving at your conclusion? Who knows, Raptor can probably even be improved with a new demosaic algorithm, like the one introduced in September 2021.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

how do you conclude it’s a better sensor? Yes it resolves better, but raptor has better DR, less noise and still resolves better than Alexa 35, so how are you arriving at your conclusion? Who knows, Raptor can probably even be improved with a new demosaic algorithm, like the one introduced in September 2021.

I was talking about sharpness.
It resolves better sharpness and there s no in-camera sharpening being applied on Venice 2.

 

[Leonardo Newman]

I was talking about sharpness.
It resolves better sharpness and there s no in-camera sharpening being applied on Venice 2.

fine, it’s just that your said better sensor, so that bad me confused. Venice 2 does indeed out resolve raptor. It seems to be the area that Sony excels. Now if only people would realize the whole dual native iso thing on Venice is bogus in comparison to raptor. Some how reds still get a bad rep for being noisy when, raptor is currently the cleanest high end sensor on the market, even at the highest ISO’s

 

[Björn Benckert]

Would be fun to see raw frames from those charts.

 

[Zack Birlew]

The new URSA 12K OLPF model would be nice to see thrown into some of these tests as well, just sayin'.

I knew the Venice 2 would really kick butt in tests, however, all of these cameras are so nice it would be hard to make any of them look bad for most projects. The dynamic range aspect isn't too important in my book, there's so much in these cameras now as it is that normal shooting scenarios shouldn't be too difficult and you have no excuse if you have lights. Overall sharpness, I've learned with the mixed RED One MX, Sony A7S 4K, and Blackmagic Pocket 4K experience on my first feature, is definitely a major factor to watch out for, especially as these cameras put out 8K now (except the Arri, for now). Seeing how much sharpness the Pocket 4K had right off the bat compared to the RED One MX really wowed me when I first saw it, albeit the RED One MX not being bad at all and quite salvageable with post sharpening if I was slightly off focus. So if the Venice 2 has a lot of pop to its image then all the better as it's still looking like a potential A camera for my next feature.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Worth noting that the algorithm used to turn Bayer CFA data into an RGB image can have a substantial impact on sharpness. Graeme hates aliasing (me too), so the baseline sharpness is intentionally low. When more accutance is desired, there are plenty of tools to crisp it up just the right amount. I like using the scaling filter selection (Lanczos vs Mitchell, etc) first to see if that gets me there. If the image still needs more "bite", you can sharpen to taste - but with a better starting point its easier to avoid over-sharpening artifacts. YMMV.

Cheers - #19

 

[rand thompson]

Yeah Blair,

You can select a Different Scaling Algorithm under the "OPTION" Tab in the "EXPORT" Module in REDCINE-X Pro. However you can only do this as a File Type other than Red Raw like OPENEXR, ProRes or DNxHR.

You can also do this inside of Resolve in the "IMAGE SCALING" tab next to the "RESIZE FILTER" selection under the "CUSTOM" Setting. I believe this will apply to Raw Red Files that will be either Downscaled or Upscaled in the Timeline.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Worth noting that the algorithm used to turn Bayer CFA data into an RGB image can have a substantial impact on sharpness. Graeme hates aliasing (me too), so the baseline sharpness is intentionally low. When more accutance is desired, there are plenty of tools to crisp it up just the right amount. I like using the scaling filter selection (Lanczos vs Mitchell, etc) first to see if that gets me there. If the image still needs more "bite", you can sharpen to taste - but with a better starting point its easier to avoid over-sharpening artifacts. YMMV.

Cheers - #19

We shot side by side and also comped together shots from the 6k Venice and monstro quite a bit and sure the Venice is crazy sharp but quite often to such extent that we need to go in and fiddle with the downscale algoritms to soften the image down to make it looks decent / not overly sharp when scaling down to HD and even UHD. On monstro I find the image more organic, like there is more pixels than actual resolution. In that sense I prefer 8k mostro to 6k Venice.

The 8k Venice I have not played with but if outputs the same sharpness per pixels as the 6k Venice I guess there could be quite a bit of moare and sampling difficulties, same kind as we se on helium vs Monstro.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

We shot side by side and also comped together shots from the 6k Venice and monstro quite a bit and sure the Venice is crazy sharp but quite often to such extent that we need to go in and fiddle with the downscale algoritms to soften the image down to make it looks decent / not overly sharp when scaling down to HD and even UHD. On monstro I find the image more organic, like there is more pixels than actual resolution. In that sense I prefer 8k mostro to 6k Venice.

The 8k Venice I have not played with but if outputs the same sharpness per pixels as the 6k Venice I guess there could be quite a bit of moare and sampling difficulties, same kind as we se on helium vs Monstro.

I love resolution for it's softness and not sharpenss. you'll never see a picture from 1900 saying it's too sharp even if it has more resolution than 6k pixels. But I bet RED's olpf is made to kill alisaing and lower sharpness.

They had to hear during years that 8k is too sharp. it probably influenced their position on how to treat sharpness. Sony comes from another background where sharpness was alsways pushed to be crispy.

 

[Nick Vera]

I love resolution for it's softness and not sharpenss. you'll never see a picture from 1900 saying it's too sharp even if it has more resolution than 6k pixels. But I bet RED's olpf is made to kill alisaing and lower sharpness.

They had to hear during years that 8k is too sharp. it probably influenced their position on how to treat sharpness. Sony comes from another background where sharpness was alsways pushed to be crispy.

I didn't find the Sony's image to be too sharp, I just found it to be resolving more detail. I did try sharpening the image on the RED for my own knowledge, it helped the footage a bit, but the aliasing/moire was much worse. I wouldn't apply sharpening to either camera.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

I didn't find the Sony's image to be too sharp, I just found it to be resolving more detail. I did try sharpening the image on the RED for my own knowledge, it helped the footage a bit, but the aliasing/moire was much worse. I wouldn't apply sharpening to either camera.

Can you share some side by side sharpness test with Alexa 35 and Raptor?

 

[Nick Vera]

https://www.reduser.net/forum/red-cameras/raptor/3811168-red-v-raptor-vs-alexa-35

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

Any over place to watch such a tests, except Facebook? Like HolyGrail Youtube?

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Sony ins't oversharpeded. Just they come from another background. And I think Greame also don't like to push the image in the limit of the olpf sharpness.

Monstro vs Alexa35 shows that Monstro still has a bit more resolution and sharpness but the gap is closing. It's getting better if you finish in maximum 4k.