RED vs SONY EX1

[Francis Kenny]

I recently shot a documentary using the Red Camera and the EX-1. I found the EX-1 to be a toy. Even in manual the camera kept trying to "help me out" with focus and aperture. Focus was impossible to see using the VF or the tiny LCD. Everything looks in focus with a tiny LCD. The distance display in the camera gives you the split of holding focus (far and near) that was 100% inaccurate and a graph that made very little sense. It seemed that the camera was designed from the outside in, rather than the correct way of any good design, from the inside out. The zoom had the ENG zoom grip. Not very organic. The only advantage for me was the weight. The end result had compression and artifacts. Low light was horrible. Anything but 0 or -3db was filled with gold balls. The documentary was a good comparison of the two systems. When the Red footage came up the audience noticed immediately. The EX-1 was a toy camera. Fine for old ladies and high school students.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I am not buying Sony cameras anymore.

 

[zak forrest]

I'm quite sure, however, if the EX1 will meet your needs, Scarlet will exceed them for half the price...

Jim

hell fucking yeah

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Im sorry but the sony camera stuck out like a sore thumb to me.. maybe ive just been spoiled with red footage for almost a year now.. but I am not impressed with the EX1

 

[Zk2007]

I recently shot a documentary using the Red Camera and the EX-1. I found the EX-1 to be a toy. Even in manual the camera kept trying to "help me out" with focus and aperture.

What do you mean? Once you turn everything to MANUAL, the camera doesn't change anything on its own. Period! If yours is doing it, you either forgot to turn it to manual or yours is defective. Send it back.

Focus was impossible to see using the VF or the tiny LCD.

Well, in full wide, small faraway background can get trick to make sure it's in focus. But the same is true when I use an 18mm on an Arricam looking through the viewfinder. But it is still doable. Besides that the LCD is great to focus. Better than any other LCD out there in its class and not really worse than the RED LCD, considering the RED is much bigger in size.

Low light was horrible.

Compared to what? A 35mm sensor camera? Duh, sure, this is actually obvious and pointless to compare. But compared to cameras in its class it's one of the best low light performers.

Anything but 0 or -3db was filled with gold balls.

You are not supposed to shoot on anything else but -3db or 0. No professional I know uses any gain. Unless the wedding people and the like who sometimes have no choice since they have no control over the lighting. But no camera is made to be used with gain. Gain is always worst case scenario and you have to live with the consequences of “your” decision, so why even bother to pick on it?

The EX-1 was a toy camera. Fine for old ladies and high school students.

Ha! Funny thing is some film people say the same thing about RED. Not that I agree but I just talked to a DP the other day that shoots daily on new Arri cameras and he said the exactly same thing. I'm sure you would consider that snobbery and disrespect, but yet you do the same here to another camera. Ironic.



The EX1 is the best camera for under 10K. No other camera in its class can outperform it. A RED system including all you need to operate as the EX1 does with lenses to cover the same focal length range, battery, recording media etc costs what, 5 times more? The fact that the EX1 can even play on RED's turf, which it surely can, nitpicking or not, is what Mac was referring to I believe. I don't think he was trying to say the EX1 is as good, so no reason to discredit the EX's qualities. Especially when half of what you said is not accurate and make it all sound like you either never used the camera, didn't use it properly or are just bashing for the sake of it.

RED is great and once all the little quirks have been ironed out it will be hard to beat when it comes to digital. But if one can’t afford it, the EX1 is a very valid option.

 

[Francis Kenny]

Rather than debating about the pros and cons of the EX-1 I can only tell you about my experiences working with the camera. I have shot many feature films and I have shot many documentaries. Some have won Academy Awards and some have won Emmys. I have been a Director of Photography for many years and have shot with almost every camera made. I own many cameras. These are my experiences with the EX-1. I think I would know if the settings were correct. And I don't think I have ever been accused of touting "inaccurate information". Perhaps I have it all wrong and you have it right. My mistake. We do agree on the fact that sometimes, in a documentary situation (and sometimes on feature films) we have little control over the lighting conditions. That is why they make higher db settings and fast film stocks. Shooting at a higher db is not something I can tell a director, in a documentary film, "we can't shoot". Sometimes the content is more important than the grain or noise.

I guess we have different experiences with the camera. Let's leave it that.

I also have no problem putting my name, credits, and experience on my posts. Francis Kenny, asc

 

[Jannard]

Rather than debating about the pros and cons of the EX-1 I can only tell you about my experiences working with the camera. I have shot many feature films and I have shot many documentaries. Some have won Academy Awards and some have won Emmys. I have been a Director of Photography for many years and have shot with almost every camera made. I own many cameras. These are my experiences with the EX-1. I think I would know if the settings were correct. And I don't think I have ever been accused of touting "inaccurate information". Perhaps I have it all wrong and you have it right. My mistake. We do agree on the fact that sometimes, in a documentary situation (and sometimes on feature films) we have little control over the lighting conditions. That is why they make higher db settings and fast film stocks. Shooting at a higher db is not something I can tell a director, in a documentary film, "we can't shoot". Sometimes the content is more important than the grain or noise.

I guess we have different experiences with the camera. Let's leave it that.

I also have no problem putting my name, credits, and experience on my posts. Francis Kenny, asc

Francis... I tend to agree with everything you said. You can shoot some really nice stuff with a $400 pocket Canon stills camera under certain conditions. But it just isn't a DSLR. Nothing wrong with the pocket cam, but don't expect it to carry the heavy load.

Jim

 

[Noah Kadner]

What do you mean? Once you turn everything to MANUAL, the camera doesn't change anything on its own. Period! If yours is doing it, you either forgot to turn it to manual or yours is defective. Send it back.

Dude- wow show some respect. Francis is a way more experienced and professional DP than you are. Well actually I can't be 100% certain because unlike him you haven't bothered to give your real name. But I'm kinda guessing you're not a fellow ASC member... :red_bandana:

-Noah

 

[Joel Kaye]

Dude- wow show some respect. Francis is a way more experienced and professional DP than you are. Well actually I can't be 100% certain because unlike him you haven't bothered to give your real name. But I'm kinda guessing you're not a fellow ASC member... :red_bandana:

-Noah

The camera does do full manual though. A setting had to be wrong or the camera was defective.

You can be a great cinematographer and hate video cameras. He's calling a $6500 camera a toy. That makes pretty good sense if you're ASC. There are a lot of guys who shoot film calling RED a toy. I may respect their work but not their opinion about RED even if they are in the ASC.

Jim's right though. The EX1 is good but more limited than something like RED. And the next guy might say RED is good but limited to something like film. There's got to be some kind of context to these discussions.

 

[Jannard]

I like to think of film as being limited...

Actually, every tool has limitations one vs. the other. That is why one needs to "pick his poison".

Jim

 

[Francis Kenny]

The ASC is open to new cameras and technology. You would be very surprised how many of the older ASC cinematographers, some who have been nominated 5 times for an Academy, embrace the Red Camera. I know that Conrad Hall, perhaps the greatest cinematographer of all time, would of embraced the Red Camera. The ASC members are pretty rigid when it comes to image quality. When Red first came on the scene all of us in the ASC were skeptical that Jim Jannard could pull it off. Why? We didn't think anyone could do it and most of us got worn down by having the big corporations dictate our format and resolution. Jim Jannard and his Red Team changed everything. Not only did Red produce a great camera but the fact that they did is making all of the other manufactures change for the better. I can't speak for the ASC but can speak about how many ASC members I have spoken to and are thrilled over what Red is doing. Our opinions are based on what we are seeing on the screen.

The implications go way beyond hardware.

One other thing. I posted a response about the EX-1. I love the fact that Zk2007 disagreed with me and had a point of view. Having a point of view is lacking in the film business. It is the secret of good work. I respect the person for saying what they believed. Francis

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

So my position would be described like this:

I'm on digital and shoot on RED.

 

[Joel Kaye]

I like to think of film as being limited...
Actually, every tool has limitations one vs. the other. That is why one needs to "pick his poison".

I feel the same way really. To me, the fact that I can go shoot some really f'n nice stuff at really high quality and come home and night and play with it on my desktop is amazing.

Just so we're clear here I've talked at least one person out of the EX1 and into buying a RED. I like the EX1, but I'm not buying one. My next little camera will be a Scarlet.

I have been fooled (constantly) by the RED preview out that RED was noisier than it is. I imagine this must be very common. It's not until post do you really know what you've got. This is one of my RED noise/latitude torture tests. The small pic is 1:1 4k. I'm not sure what camera really compares to RED's noise levels here.

 

[Adam Levins]

I know that Conrad Hall, perhaps the greatest cinematographer of all time, would of embraced the Red Camera.

Did you hold a seance? I love Sir Conrad Hall's work, say hi to him next time you speak ;-)

 

[Joel Kaye]

One other thing. I posted a response about the EX-1. I love the fact that Zk2007 disagreed with me and had a point of view. Having a point of view is lacking in the film business. It is the secret of good work. I respect the person for saying what they believed. Franci

Now that's cool.

 

[amrrahmy]

I love the fact that Zk2007 disagreed with me and had a point of view. Having a point of view is lacking in the film business. It is the secret of good work. I respect the person for saying what they believed. Francis

having a point of view almost vanished in the film business.


and the ex1 has some nice hidden guns, if u look deep enough in the menu.

also, as someone stated the price point, shooting with 5 ex1 at the same time would make better results than one red camera in some situations.(in alot of situations)

 

[Paul Hazlett]

Jim Jannard and his Red Team changed everything. Not only did Red produce a great camera but the fact that they did is making all of the other manufactures change for the better.

This is one of the best side effects of Red One. a kick in the ass to the rest
of the industry to change and innovate, lifting the entire industry to new heights for less coin.

 

[Júlio Taubkin]

The ASC is open to new cameras and technology. You would be very surprised how many of the older ASC cinematographers, some who have been nominated 5 times for an Academy, embrace the Red Camera. I know that Conrad Hall, perhaps the greatest cinematographer of all time, would of embraced the Red Camera. The ASC members are pretty rigid when it comes to image quality. When Red first came on the scene all of us in the ASC were skeptical that Jim Jannard could pull it off. Why? We didn't think anyone could do it and most of us got worn down by having the big corporations dictate our format and resolution. Jim Jannard and his Red Team changed everything. Not only did Red produce a great camera but the fact that they did is making all of the other manufactures change for the better. I can't speak for the ASC but can speak about how many ASC members I have spoken to and are thrilled over what Red is doing. Our opinions are based on what we are seeing on the screen.

The implications go way beyond hardware.

One other thing. I posted a response about the EX-1. I love the fact that Zk2007 disagreed with me and had a point of view. Having a point of view is lacking in the film business. It is the secret of good work. I respect the person for saying what they believed. Francis

The EX-1 does some kind of auto adjustment, maybe a toe adjustment, but there is something going on in the shadows, even with the settings on full manual.

It certainly "feels" like a toy after seeing a red face to face today for the first time.

But I digress...

Nice to have you Francis, you worked in a film that meant a lot to me when I was younger: Wayne's World 2. I know, you never had THAT one coming, but I truly loved that film!

Cheers!

 

[Craig Ryan]

It's also interesting to wonder how far down the road a camera like the EX1 would have been if RED didn't exist.

 

[Joel Kaye]

It's also interesting to wonder how far down the road a camera like the EX1 would have been if RED didn't exist.

I think the DVX and HVX probably deserve a lot of the credit for that. Sony finally figured out 24P and solid state. Basically, they took the best of all the little cameras and stuck it all in the EX1.

I'm not sure anyone has responded to RED or Scarlet yet.