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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED vs SONY EX1

Big Mac is right. The EX-1 is damn close to the RED around 1080p or lower.
I recently used a EX-1 and I was shocked about the quality.
Best price performance I have ever seen.
The EX-3 will even be better.
Sometimes I think Sony could easily build a RED killer in a minute but then they would have to canibalize their high end lineup. That's something that they surely dont want to do. They like ripping us of to much.

Yeah Mac I can totaly feel ya.

Tim
 
macgregor said:
I don't agree. In a big screen Red steps ahead the EX1 (and any other camera of its price range). Reasons:
- resolution
- no edge sharpening (visible in ex1 at big screen)
- no visible compression artifacts (ex1's mpeg2 shows mosquito/noise i shadows)
- less purple friggin (if proper lenses used)
- less lense aberrations (if proper lenses are used), ex1 shows barrel distortion
Click to expand...

I've never seen a side by side test projected so I couldn't honestly say. I've only seen the EX1 with all detail off. There may still be some sharpening, but not much.

I do know for a fact EX1's vary in quality. A couple of my friends have sent their's back for lens fixes which reduced aberration on the long end of the lens. Back focus is tough to get right also. So wide angle stuff can look weak if the camera is just a little out.

Having said that, I do think RED is superior - but it's totally fair to compare them and incorrect to say the EX1 is a toy because it's in a really small form factor.
 
Sometimes I think Sony could easily build a RED killer in a minute but then they would have to canibalize their high end lineup. That's something that they surely dont want to do. They like ripping us of to much.
Click to expand...

In terms of mere performance I agree Sony probably could whip out something better than RED, seeing how they have decades of experience with this. But the day Sony offers FREE firmware upgrades to their systems as well as a trade-in for their more expensive units, that I never see happening. And THIS is what makes RED so revolutionary.

Anyways, good comparison. Just goes to show that there are other great cameras are available to us.
 
Jep Craig. Sony doesn't get it.
The have some nice products but their philosophy is not in the same league as RED.
Maybe they will change that in the near future?! Maybe they will have to...:innocent:
 
for sony to change.. they will require new leadership in developing products that can aim towards filmmakers/cameramen and corporate. Right now sony is all corporate, they know that reaching the masses is by creating easy to use products that have the right ergonomics and feasibilty/flexibility of shooting video. They know their target customers and it aint us guys... definately not a bunch of 5000 people, who btw i bet that more than half of these 5000 have had a sony to shoot with (if not all).

we are none but small fry to sony broadcast. even then i can imagine them making something that would be worth our while.
 
The EX1 has a number of preset curves, ones which strive to protect the low end and sacrifice the highs, ones which draw a shelf on the highs to give you the look of a film-like knee, etc..
Great choices, but you have to pick your curve for your scene and go with it, you don't get a second chance later.
The EX1's LCD is incredible, like a tiny 1080p monitor on your camera with a histogram, IRE reading, etc, very nice!
I find also that sony has really worked out how not to get any nasty blue CA on the blowouts, I've found this from the Z1U through to the EX1. Blue fringing on blowouts plagues me on my DVX andromeda..

When you look at the images from the camera on an LCD HDTV, they are extremely sharp, fairly mellow in tonal gradation, fairly low noise. It screams video, but it actually sells its own look to me every time I see it. You would have to embrace the look to shoot a fiction project with it.

Its a nice camera for the price point, very light as well.

RED is obviously a whole 'nother wonderful world of options, but again, for the price, the EX1 is a great choice.

Here's a EX1 test shoot I did the other day:
The first part is the low end curve which contrasts the highs, the second part is the high end curves which mellows the highs and contrasts the lows..

http://www.qmediasolutions.com/guest/EX1_Camera_Test/EX1_Daylight_test.mov

Also, the RED camera test I shot two weekends ago (just very simple images)

http://www.qmediasolutions.com/guest/EX1_Camera_Test/RED_DVX_h264.mov
 
Matthew Bennett said:
The EX1 has a number of preset curves, ones which strive to protect the low end and sacrifice the highs, ones which draw a shelf on the highs to give you the look of a film-like knee, etc..
Great choices, but you have to pick your curve for your scene and go with it, you don't get a second chance later.
Click to expand...

I have found that EX1 footage grades extremely well when you use Apple Color at float YUV.

But all the gamma curves are still somewhat of an enigma to me as to when to use which. I tend to like the Cine ones more than the Standard ones though.
Have you or anybody here arrived at a conclusion as to which situations each gamma curve would land itself more adequately to?


Matthew Bennett said:
Here's a EX1 test shoot I did the other day:
The first part is the low end curve which contrasts the highs, the second part is the high end curves which mellows the highs and contrasts the lows..
Click to expand...


Interesting videos.

Could you elaborate about which gamma curves you are specifically talking about?
 
same here.
i have the ex1 and letus, it´s great indeed. if you have the experience to achive letus to be really sharp it´s very good and filmic.

but: there´s no comparison to a red. not havin my own (just waiting for delivery 2001-2200) but tested a lot with it, red is much better.
you have the 35mm native, and wide shots are simply sharper.

letus adapter has its limits (no shutter to use or stops at the foto/filmoptic)
the new ultimate letus will push this kit closer to red, but the red footage will always look more impressive.

i think ex1 and letus are a good worst case backup cam and even as a 2nd camera (release on SD/DVD) or 720p it is worth a look.
 
Red South West said:
you have the 35mm native, and wide shots are simply sharper.
Click to expand...

Is that because the ground glass can't transfer the resolution?

I think a EX1 might be a good B cam to RED. There are times you've got less light and want deeper DOF. Fire up that Sony. But yes, a perfect RED shot will beat a perfect EX1 shot.
 
if you fix the letus very well (its based on experience and backfocus handling!) a 1080p image of it can be very sharp.
groundglass may soften it a bit, but it´s a wonderful image the kit delivers.
the ex without the letus is a videoimage, even sharper, but i don´t like videoimages because of missing DOF.
letus does a great job here.
but it is difficult to get it, as you have two "focus jobs" to do, you have to be at the right point with your ex optik on the groundglass (in my experience, focussing the grain of it is NOT the perfect focus, i always correct it slightly) and then the focus of the lense you put on.
as the film/foto lense has to be open, there´s not much space from focus to defocus. it´s a good practice to train your eyes and focus pulling abilities :weight_lift:
well, i will be happy to have both cams here. both will have their jobs in my production. i also will do some tests when red is here between a 50mm nikon image with ex and with the red 18-50mm lense on ... red of course:wink: . looking forward ...
 
Daniel Reichenbach said:
Compared EX1/RED today. The image quality of the EX1 is indeed very impressive. But as soon as you start grading, SONY's EX1 is out. AND: To compare a 35mm look with a HD look doesn't make really sense.
Click to expand...

I've seen very beautiful 35mm images shot with the EX-1. To me, the major distinction between these cameras is the elasticity of the RAW image. There's nothing like it. But there are also times when it is nice to generate good images out of the camera that do not require as much intensive post-processing as RED requires. Horses for courses, as they say.

Awhile back, I did some testing with an EX-1 owner...results here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=133445

These tests had one very specific purpose, to see if the EX-1 owner could pull keys as cleanly from the EX-1 as from the RED, since he is a VFX guy.

I don't think there is much point in slagging either one of these cameras - they are both excellent, with superior results in very different applications.

Once RED ships more, better lenses and fixes some of the onboard audio issues, I'm betting I won't look back, but as I struggle with existing lens prices and the limits of the lens choices that are currently available, and also with the onboard audio of the RED, there are times when the EX-1 looks like a pretty good bargain.
 
Red South West said:
the new ultimate letus will push this kit closer to red, but the red footage will always look more impressive.

i think ex1 and letus are a good worst case backup cam and even as a 2nd camera (release on SD/DVD) or 720p it is worth a look.
Click to expand...

Just shooting with a 200A and Letus Ultimate for the past two months has been quite a joy and it's brought me back quite a lot of money. Shooting EX-1 + Ultimate is very pristine and clean, so to the point that I'm still torn between shooting my short on a RED, EX-1 Ultimate or 200A Ultimate.

It's just all about what you want to do, how much time/money you have to do it
 
The other RED major advantage, of course, is future-proofing. I don't think 4K footage will be obsolete in what is left of my lifetime. It may be eclipsed, but it won't be obsolete. And with 1080 footage, the risk of obsolescence is higher within the next 10 years.
 
Zk2007 said:
I have found that EX1 footage grades extremely well when you use Apple Color at float YUV.

But all the gamma curves are still somewhat of an enigma to me as to when to use which. I tend to like the Cine ones more than the Standard ones though.
Have you or anybody here arrived at a conclusion as to which situations each gamma curve would land itself more adequately to?





Interesting videos.

Could you elaborate about which gamma curves you are specifically talking about?
Click to expand...

With the EX1 you can shoot a flat response, where all parts of the image are treated equally, or you can lessen contrast in areas of the image, ie: the lights or the darks. If you want to simulate a 'film-look', where the knee of the image is gently curving and compressing tones, then you'd use one of their cine-gamma curves. I forget which one ones do which.

If I owned the camera I'd probably want to set up a 'profile' setting or settings I could toggle between. Like say if you were shooting at the beach or at a snow scene, you'd choose a curve and setting that gives you less contrast in the highs. Because the scene is comprised of mostly highs, that setting would give you the nicest rendition of all the high tones that are in that scene.
Opposite for a dark scene...
 
Thanks -- also just to point out, this test was done on Build 15 -- I don't know if it makes a difference, since the key was blue screen and therefore most of the noisier channel was pulled anyway, but it's not Build 16, which is a quantum leap in image quality.
 
Maybe someday Sony will also offer to take back a camera body for a full credit toward their next model after allowing you to use it for over a year.

Red's offer to upgrade to Epic is nuts. I mean these guys are wacko. Who in the business does this? It's fantastic.

That being said - the EX1 does looks great.
 
If you have tested the EX1 in low light and really scrutinized it (as much as RED has been) and you find that it meets your needs, we will be the 1st ones to tell you to buy it and save money. The RED ONE is a pain in the ass to focus compared to the EX1.

I'm quite sure, however, if the EX1 will meet your needs, Scarlet will exceed them for half the price...

Jim
 
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