Red vs Genesis vs Alexa

[Petr Dvorak]

I always remember the time when i was a young aspiring photographer and i met an old time pro and i asked him about the new digital cameras that were coming out. He said digital would never take off (i think he mumbled something about dynamic range), so forget it and go with film. I listened to him. I will never make that mistake again.

That change was just overnight. Truly shocking change for these pro dudes. :001_smile:

 

[andrewhake]

But at the time, and until extremely recently, he was 100% right.

Probably would have stayed right for quite a few more years if a company like RED hadn't come along with a goal of actually making the best camera they possibly could. I imagine most electronics companies' engineers feel like they are always living in the past and never getting any recognition. We had that idea 4 years ago! And we were told by some guys in suits to shut up and keep it to ourselves for a few years.

Norway is AFAIK only installing 4k projectors onwards...

Pretty sure AMC has announced they will only be installing 4K projectors in their theatres and even converting all theatres in the country to 4K Sony Projectors, May of last year:

http://www.bigscreen.com/journal.php?id=1448

and of course:

http://www.amctheatres.com/Sony4K/

I have to say watching a movie in 3D presentation on this type of setup is a whole different world. Watching the last few Pixar films (Up, Toy Story), and Avatar, presented this way (AMC's flagship theatre in Downtown Kansas City, AMC's headquarters), makes you feel like you are watching the movie the film-makers watched when they gave it their stamp of approval. And these weren't even 4K movies from what I understand. I absolutely love going to see a good movie in the theatre and RED is doing everything they can to make that experience the best possible way to experience a film. (and makes creating a film at this quality feasible for more productions)

 

[Jason Sinclair]

I was talking about still photography.

 

[Adam J McKay]

I have recently had the chance to play with and shoot some test with both the RED MX and the Alexa. My experience so far has been that the Alexa is far superior in regards to ease of use. Both in learning the camera and workflow. The menu system on the Alexa is the most simple I have ever used. The RED took some time and a number of flow charts to figure out. And for post, having SxS cards plug straight into your macbook pro is a godsend.
And when shooting Prores 422HQ log-c, I was able to push the image more than I could ever imagine needing to.

Where as on the RED, I am still trying to figure out the workflow. Redecine took me quite a while to figure out and trans coding is a bugger without a rocket card. I did however get to do a quick test with Adobe CS5 and that was a treat, as it is just drag and drop. I love the flexibility of the RAW footage as well.

So take it for what it's worth. This has been my experience with both systems over the last few weeks. I should mention that before this, I had never touched a digital cinema camera in my life.

 

[Tim Morten]

There's a lot more to consider than just menus and SxS cards... not to say that Alexa should be dismissed, but neither should Red be labelled hard to use because you have to spend 10 minutes familiarizing with the menus, and you have to deal with the terrible burden of copying a file from a hard-drive...

I mean no offense, but point-and-shoots are easy to use too... doesn't make them superior tools for professional work.

Best,
Tim

 

[Uli Plank]

Well, I have used Alexa and RED side-by-side last summer and I'm very experienced with RED workflow, while it was the first time I came close to an Alexa (but handled D20/21 before). The Alexa is very easy to use and the image has impressive latitude – the best before HDRx existed. It's limitation is resolution, but apart from that it's a great camera, and don't forget: Arri has service facilities all over the planet.

 

[shashbugu]

I have recently had the chance to play with and shoot some test with both the RED MX and the Alexa. My experience so far has been that the Alexa is far superior in regards to ease of use. Both in learning the camera and workflow. The menu system on the Alexa is the most simple I have ever used. The RED took some time and a number of flow charts to figure out. And for post, having SxS cards plug straight into your macbook pro is a godsend.
And when shooting Prores 422HQ log-c, I was able to push the image more than I could ever imagine needing to.

Where as on the RED, I am still trying to figure out the workflow. Redecine took me quite a while to figure out and trans coding is a bugger without a rocket card. I did however get to do a quick test with Adobe CS5 and that was a treat, as it is just drag and drop. I love the flexibility of the RAW footage as well.

So take it for what it's worth. This has been my experience with both systems over the last few weeks. I should mention that before this, I had never touched a digital cinema camera in my life.

Actually its a lot more informative fro a newbie to offer their experiences. It is worth a lot. Many of us have gotten used to or overcome the post hurdles when dealing with Red-media. With more and more cameras coming out, the Penelope, Alexa etc, the transcoding step with the Redrocket is actually becoming more of a hindrance when dealing with third party editors, and renters than a blessing. I do wish red develops a new transcoding gadget that is more affordable and portable than a Redrocket. I do hope one of the Epic modules is for transcoding. it becomes a bit of an issue when everyone else around you has workflow problems. Most people can afford a Redrocket but the cost of buying a piece of hardware that does only one thing and is not really future proof sits uneasily with most folks. Everybody loves Red images, but most folk just can't work with it.

 

[Paul Steinberg]

As a few others have mentioned Alexa is dead simple to use. Within a couple minutes of sitting down to the camera you're shooting. Arri also have THE standard in accessories and everything works well and is built to last with their cameras. Viewfinder is very good. Workflow is simple, the only thing I find aggravating is that the camera interface on the dumb side of the camera.

Sony are CCD's and given the option I'd much prefer CCD over CMOS for digital capture. I've shot A LOT with Sony cameras and they're a "mature" camera for lack of a better word and by that I mean they're a stable platform from which to capture images. Tape based formats seem to be on their way out but I've always preferred shooting on a proprietary medium. Once the tape is out of the camera, editorial puts it into a VTR and it works. No codec issues, no software-isn't-compatible-with-you-firmware-version issues, no fuss, no muss. If you want to archive it for 25 years you just put it on the shelf. Want realtime playback? Hit play. S.log is an awesome workflow that just works. Fantastic latitude that allows hold up in grading much better than RC36.

I will say that Sony cameras aren't all that easy to just sit down and shoot. Lots of menu's and the HDCamSR VTR's have all sorts of important, yet hidden functions that are accessed by SHIFT+FUNTION+SYSTEM type button sequences. Take a look at the new SRW-9000PL. It's a F35 in the form factor and price of an original F900.

 

[Greg Starr]

A film I thought "really popped" for the Genesis was the Steven Poster ASC shot film "The Box". He uses ProMist filters to help create a soft 70's look, but I thought the color of the film really showed off the Genesis.

The film was a commercial and critical flop, but Steven did some really great work here. Definitely worth a watch if you are interested in a stylized look the Genesis can achieve. :}

It really was aesthetically well done. I bought it on Bluray just for that reason.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Very well said. The workflow issue has been resolved by a few, but from what I hear on the streets and on this very forum thats the biggest bottleneck in Red-world.

I think the workflowissues with RED is dramatically overstated these days, and if anything they're similar to others.

I do concur, a proresmodule for instant offlines or log4444 would probably be a good thing (I cannot really make my mind up), especially for the 5k Epic.

My guess is that the larger files of the Epic will bite a few peoples backs, initially...

If there is a issue with RedCode, it is that it isn't video... which is the very reason most people choose RED in the first place...

Compared to the Alexa, the RAW files are smaller and more flexible and definitely not harder to work with. But different, for sure.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

I loved the look of Apocalypto, whatever was shot with proper lighting and conditions, not the rushed up running shots through the jungle which were noisier than Mardi Grass. The night scenes were average, but the day stuff is truly glorious, with a golden bronze patina to it that recalls the early Technicolor films and that shows off the amazing costumes in all of their glory. The grading was a bit too contrasty for my taste but the Genesis did look great on this film.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Anecdote time: I visited our local college here to show them the RED. They told me how they'd got a grant to get an HDCAM camera a while back, which they used with the students, but they could never afford or get a grant for the HDCAM deck. At which point, I held up a $30 CF card reader, and said this was the RED's "HDCAM deck - $30 at Target".

I can shoot a small RED movie and have the video up on my Facebook page to show the grandparents back in the UK the kids in less time than it would be to even do the capture of a DV tape over firewire from my little DV camera, and that was before I got a Rocket card.

But then again, I'm biassed!

Graeme

 

[Rudi Herbert]

... the transcoding step with the Redrocket is actually becoming more of a hindrance when dealing with third party editors. I do wish red develops a new transcoding gadget that is more affordable and portable than a Redrocket. I do hope one of the Epic modules is for transcoding. it becomes a bit of an issue when everyone else around you has workflow problems. Most people can afford a Redrocket but the cost of buying a piece of hardware that does only one thing and is not really future proof sits uneasily with most folks. Everybody loves Red images, but most folk just can't work with it.

...or you could just start using systems other than Mac/FCP that do not need transcoding start working on RED files. I don't mean to flame the bonfire of the holy MAC-PC war once again, but in truth, FCP and Mac have become sort of a legacy system that is way behind usability for RED compared not only to Adobe but to any other editor out there basically. The stubborn adherence to the shiny, silver towers and the white monitors by so many post people out there, even when FCP is obviously no longer "the" system to edit with, is actually contributing a great deal to the perception that RED is difficult and time consuming to work with. I had a customer with me the other day who sat with me, saw me bring in 30-40 r3d clips into Premiere, access the RAW settings directly from Premiere, adjust said settings, and then start editing immediately on the timeline. I added a few layers of effects all on real time, went to After Effects for some color grading on Color Finesse, went back to Premiere and then exported from there to Blu-Ray. That was that. He could not understand where the whole "RED is difficult to work with or transcode" thing came from. He was all the more surprised when I told them that we were indeed doing transcoding from the r3d files, it was just happening simultaneously at the time of export to H.264. That once cutting edge FCP workflow is really working against RED from every possible angle. I don't even use a Rocket in my systems, since I can work directly on the RAW files on real time, and I don't mind a little rendering time at the end, which you'd have to do on any other system anyway....

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Anecdote time: I visited our local college here to show them the RED. They told me how they'd got a grant to get an HDCAM camera a while back, which they used with the students, but they could never afford or get a grant for the HDCAM deck. At which point, I held up a $30 CF card reader, and said this was the RED's "HDCAM deck - $30 at Target".

I can shoot a small RED movie and have the video up on my Facebook page to show the grandparents back in the UK the kids in less time than it would be to even do the capture of a DV tape over firewire from my little DV camera, and that was before I got a Rocket card.

But then again, I'm biassed!

Graeme

Well, but that's exactly what amazed me with RED from the day I got the cam. The cam CAN have a quicker turnaround than P2... I have used it for news broadcasts... to SAVE time - (I don't do much news, though... -

But when discussing these issues, we usually start talking about different things. It's a different thing to push out material for a quick glance at the kiddies, and let's say pirates...

Actually I'd be very curious as to a breakdown on their workflow....

 

[Steven James Eaton]

I am 90 percent done editing a feature film with Adobe Premiere on a PC, which was 80 percent done on RED with no transcoding, and but a few small processing speedbumps. I would love to have edited some Genesis/Alexa footage to compare, but I actually had more issues with the other footages used for the other 20 percent shot 5D (slow but cool) and P2 (yecch!). This may only be my experience, but it was a very simple, happy workflow for the RED.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

I am 90 percent done editing a feature film with Adobe Premiere on a PC, which was 80 percent done on RED with no transcoding, and but a few small processing speedbumps. I would love to have edited some Genesis/Alexa footage to compare, but I actually had more issues with the other footages used for the other 20 percent shot 5D (slow but cool) and P2 (yecch!). This may only be my experience, but it was a very simple, happy workflow for the RED.

There you go!

 

[Tim Morten]

Many of us have gotten used to or overcome the post hurdles when dealing with Red-media. With more and more cameras coming out, the Penelope, Alexa etc, the transcoding step with the Redrocket is actually becoming more of a hindrance when dealing with third party editors, and renters than a blessing.

Maybe if your clients HAVE to have ProRes - otherwise, R3D has native support from Avid, Adobe, Sony, Assimilate, DaVinci, etc. I'd suggest that the "hurdle" is insisting on a less than ideal format, not that Red media is itself a hurdle.

Cheers,
Tim

 

[Adam J McKay]

I too have edited natively on CS5, but how do you gain control over the RAW files without redecine. IE ASA, Color temp, Gamma? If you just bring an r3d into CS5 what does it default to? The settings it was shot at? I have tried finding answers on the site, so if someone can link me to some threads that be sweet.

 

[Tim Morten]

Not really the right thread for this, but since you asked: In CS4, I believe that the default was the camera setting, so presumably this is also true for CS5.

According to Adobe (http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/redsupport/):

The new RED R3D Source Settings dialog box in Adobe Premiere Pro CS5 offers extensive control over the look of RED raw footage. In conjunction with the ability to change color settings per clip, you can save combinations of adjustments as custom presets, which can be applied to individual or multiple clips. The controls in the Source Settings dialog box include:

•Debayer Detail — Vary the level of detail extracted from the image sensor.
•Chroma — Denoise the red/blue channels.
•OLPF Compensation — Eliminate color Moire fringes by controlling the optical low-pass filter (OLPF) that refines edge detail.
•Maximum Bit Depth — Use this global setting to choose between 32-bit float and 8-bit.
•White Balance — Manipulate Kelvin, Tint, and Saturation levels.
•Timecode — Select the timecode track to use from the R3D file.
•Color Settings — Adjust the ISO setting, exposure, red, green, blue, brightness, contrast, and highlight levels.
•Color Space — Select the desired color space from among Camera RGB For RAW; Rec 709, the standard color space for HD; and REDspace, which is a more saturated variation of Camera RGB.
•Gamma Curve — Override the gamma curve selection using several preset gamma curves.
•User Curve — Use a custom curve created by the camera operator.

 

[Doug Horton]

...or you could just start using systems other than Mac/FCP that do not need transcoding start working on RED files. I don't mean to flame the bonfire of the holy MAC-PC war once again, but in truth, FCP and Mac have become sort of a legacy system that is way behind usability for RED compared not only to Adobe but to any other editor out there basically. The stubborn adherence to the shiny, silver towers and the white monitors by so many post people out there, even when FCP is obviously no longer "the" system to edit with, is actually contributing a great deal to the perception that RED is difficult and time consuming to work with. I had a customer with me the other day who sat with me, saw me bring in 30-40 r3d clips into Premiere, access the RAW settings directly from Premiere, adjust said settings, and then start editing immediately on the timeline. I added a few layers of effects all on real time, went to After Effects for some color grading on Color Finesse, went back to Premiere and then exported from there to Blu-Ray. That was that. He could not understand where the whole "RED is difficult to work with or transcode" thing came from. He was all the more surprised when I told them that we were indeed doing transcoding from the r3d files, it was just happening simultaneously at the time of export to H.264. That once cutting edge FCP workflow is really working against RED from every possible angle. I don't even use a Rocket in my systems, since I can work directly on the RAW files on real time, and I don't mind a little rendering time at the end, which you'd have to do on any other system anyway....

people seem to ignore Adobe's or Avid's adaptation to R3D's and use it to bash RED's workflow. So frustrating.