Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED TWO (speculation)

Tom Lowe said:
Jeff, the difference between this Scarlet 35 camera and the Epic would be 3K vs 5K.
Click to expand...

Yes, but it is unlikely that would translate into $1000 for the 3K camera vs $40,000 for the 5K camera (or whatever the Epic is selling at)...

A $1000 3K RAW camera is like Canon enabling RAW video recording at 24 fps and higher in the 7D by adding a more advanced and powerful processor plus better internal cooling system plus a higher capacity recording capability plus better monitoring and audio features... and then cutting the price in half for their troubles. Possible, maybe... likely, no. And I'm not sure why people want to expend so much time and energy into unlikely scenarios. It was a miracle that Red figured out how to put a 4K RAW camera on the market for $17,000 four years ago, but somehow now it's possible for them to have found a way to cut 90% of their production costs and sell something like it for $1000???
 
BTW, I am not buying into Sanjin's $1,000 pricetag in any way, shape or form!! Jim should charge whatever it costs to build the thing plus whatever margin he decides on.
 
Hmmm as of now we have GH2 at the price tag of $800, that's for better than Canon video.

If we multiply this number by 5, could we perhaps have a body that records with better read-out from the sensor and a more robust codec than AVCHD?

Of course I'm daydreaming, there's already the AF-100 which cost about 5 times the price of the GH2 and while it offers some nice features like 1080 at 60p, the sensor characteristics and the compression don't really impress me.
 
It's a very different beast, just improving the line skipping and pixel binning in a large sensor still camera and then compressing it less but still using an 8-bit 4:2:0 consumer HD codec... versus offering full-sensor RAW recording at cinema speeds, probably compressed ala RedCode or Cineform. And then to say that it would also have to do real-time full debayering and downsampling from the entire sensor to 1080P on top of that if people wanted a high-quality HD recording instead of RAW, preferably 10-bit 4:2:2 at minimum...

Just look at what Canon currently sells as a $1000 HD camcorder and then imagine it approaching what a Red One does but with no price increase. You don't get into that price range for an advanced electronic product without huge consumer sales driving the price down through the economics of scale.
 
Yeah, definitely David. I was just trying to find a middle ground.

8 bit 4:2:0 AVCHD 1-24fps full res < Something that doesn't exist < 12 bit (+) Bayer RAW 1-120fps full res

So what would be the middle ground?

Perhaps as you mentioned... 10 bit 4:2:2 and a better codec like ProRes (or something like that, but open-source-ish) offering at least 60p at 1080? Sounds like a deal.

However, if we expect this from Panasonic, this middle ground would cost more (double, triple) than their current offering. Panasonic would perhaps charge $15K for this and Sony $30K.
 
IMHO, the discussion here should not be about price. Price should be set by Red, end of story. I've never understood discussion of price here. I doubt Jim has made a dime of profit from Red. He seems to be quite capable of setting prices.

What members of this board CAN offer are ideas about camera specs and functions we would like to see.
 
Pietro Impagliazzo said:
Yeah, definitely David. I was just trying to find a middle ground.

8 bit 4:2:0 AVCHD 1-24fps full res < Something that doesn't exist < 12 bit (+) Bayer RAW 1-120fps full res

So what would be the middle ground?

Perhaps as you mentioned... 10 bit 4:2:2 and a better codec like ProRes (or something like that, but open-source-ish) offering at least 60p at 1080? Sounds like a deal.

However, if we expect this from Panasonic, this middle ground would cost more (double, triple) than their current offering. Panasonic would perhaps charge $15K for this and Sony $30K.
Click to expand...

Yes, some codec in that quality range. Probably 10-bit 4:2:2 Log, maybe in the 50 to 100Mb/sec range. There are probably a number of codecs in that area. On the other hand, I'd love to see 12-bit 3K RAW fall into that category of being popular with prosumers.
 
Tom Lowe said:
IMHO, the discussion here should not be about price. Price should be set by Red, end of story. I've never understood discussion of price here. I doubt Jim has made a dime of profit from Red. He seems to be quite capable of setting prices.

What members of this board CAN offer are ideas about camera specs and functions we would like to see.
Click to expand...

Hmmm...

Price is an important point. Sometimes its a deciding factor. Input is reasonable.

To my mind, its as valid as any other feature of the camera. I also expect Red will pay exactly as much attention to my ideas of prices and features (or anyone elses!) that they feel suits them and not one iota more.

I think its fair to consider that if we get essentially a Scarlet Cinema, but instead of a 2/3" sensor a S35 sensor... price should be similar.

What's my reasoning? Look at Sony, which has brought out their F3 with an S35 Exmor sensor below the price of the equivalent 2/3" ENG camera. (PMW-350)

Now, I recall the price of Scarlet 2/3" Cinema was around $2750 for the brain. That was RED's price not mine. Prices and specs change when dealing with future Red products of course, but I think its a reasonable and fair price point.

To be honest though, I'd be thrilled if Red kept a figurative S35 3K brain under $4000. They should aim for the price of the 2/3" Scarlet Cinema though.

I've got a name for this notional S35 3K camera... Scarlet Indie

Codec wise... I see no reason it couldn't have the same codec options as the other Scarlet cameras. RedCode at similar data & frame rates as the other Scarlet cameras.
 
Pietro Impagliazzo said:
8 bit 4:2:0 AVCHD 1-24fps full res < Something that doesn't exist < 12 bit (+) Bayer RAW 1-120fps full res

So what would be the middle ground?
Click to expand...

Panasonic already offers a codec that fits the bill.

AVC Intra is a 10 bit 4:2:2 codec at 100Mbps.

They offer it starting at $8000 on their HPX-300 and HPX-370 cameras.

Frankly I am quite surprised they did not include it with the AF100.

That indicates to me that they have another camera in mind for the indie "cinema" client- one that records AVC Intra.

Of course at this stage, I'm sort of hoping they follow RED & Cinedeck's lead and use 2.5" SSD drives as their media. While they are at it they could offer higher data rates. AVCIntra at 200-300Mbps would be might impressive not only as an acquisition codec, but even as a mastering codec.

Of course they could also offer up 4:4:4 versions... finally having something that can compete with HDCAM SR dual link. That could be interesting.
 
I'm back and it's glad to see that this tread draws a huge interest and quality discussion...

Tom Lowe said:
Sanjin, you are a visionary, my friend. :thumbsup:

But why are you saying 1080p RAW? That is barely 720p resolution. In order to get a clean 1080p, you will need a 3K Bayer sensor. If Red did make an S35 3K Bayer sensor, the photosites would be very large (gigantic), and the camera could potentially be blessed stellar high-ISO performance, (perhaps a usable ISO 6400?), much the same as Nikon's new D3s still camera, which leaves the total megapixel count very low for a full-frame 35mm still camera, resulting in fantastic low-light capabilities.

Jeff, the difference between this Scarlet 35 camera and the Epic would be 3K vs 5K.
Click to expand...

Tom thanks for your kind words.

Also to make it clear I'm not an engineer and probably not so good with numbers here on this topic...

And let other experts to correct that in a right way...

My thoughts were more about business policy connected with something that still hanging "unrealized" in the air.

A lightweight, 2K/1080p 35mm sensor imager size with RAW recording, professional and also affordable digital cine camera for everyone.

Everyone is a professional today.

The world is in a constant change...

So take it or leave it...
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
There is no a dreamworld here just because there is already technology possible to make right away.. and could all cost about $1000 Bucks...
Click to expand...

I think Scarlet is the best indication of what is feasible, when, and at what price.

... Now I do have to say, your Leica speculations have been :hurray::thumbsup: spot on.
 
Peter Moretti said:
I think Scarlet is the best indication of what is feasible, when, and at what price.
Click to expand...

I agree, but to be fair to Sanjin...

$1000 may in fact be a reasonable representation of the materials/parts cost for this camera. I'd tend to look more at $2000.

Of course that ignores labor (both manufacturing and hardware/software support) and profit.

To restate I agree... look to the pricing of Scarlet Cinema as a guide for what makes sense for this proposed camera.
 
Martin Weiss said:
That should make lenses really cheap. After all they're just melted sand, some metal and plastics.
Click to expand...

Yep like the canon 50mm f1.8II not bad for 100 bucks, I like Sanjin's idea and it is only a matter of time before someone produces something along these lines. I doubt Red will however because I think Jim wants to build the best and maybe he is not interested in profit and huge markets? I dunno ...pure speculation on my part, would love a tiny little crash cam with a nice clean crisp image at high frame rates. Hey Santa are you logged on and listening?
 
Martin Weiss said:
That should make lenses really cheap. After all they're just melted sand, some metal and plastics.
Click to expand...

I'll play your game of literalism for a moment...

Yes and no.

As another poster pointed out the Canon 50mm f/1.8 is exactly that. I'd guesstimate that its only about $1-2 of raw materials.

A Master Prime 50mm has a few more exotic materials in it. I bet that lens is about $1000 of raw materials.

Of course that isn't what I meant, and you know it.

I'm talking about components, not raw materials. Processors ram chips, cases, etc.

I'm just WAGin out here... but iSupply routinely does & publishes component level parts.Check it out... you'd often be surprised at the cost of components versus a finished product.
 
Anyhow (and I promise I'll stay out of this...) what is described here is basically a Scarlet 2/3, with an S35mm chip.

Then that should give a fair hunch about the pricepoint.

The S35mm (5k) Epic is priced 1k$ under F3.... That ain't too bad, is it.

Ok I know the F3 comes with some kind of monitor and viewfinder, but have any of you guys actually tried it?

(I have, but only shortly...)
 
I'd go:

S35, 1-48fps, 3K raw, CF module, side handle, battery, 5" monitor, SSD, 2 x XLR, HD-SDI, HDMI, 1080p/2k 4:2:2 pro res option.

Price that under $10k and blow everything out of the water.
 
Alexander Ibrahim said:
Hmmm...

Price is an important point. Sometimes its a deciding factor. Input is reasonable.

To my mind, its as valid as any other feature of the camera. I also expect Red will pay exactly as much attention to my ideas of prices and features (or anyone elses!) that they feel suits them and not one iota more.
Click to expand...

Jim has stated publicly that he will NOT build a camera to a price spec. He said that trying to do so with Scarlet was a mistake. In other words, he will only build a great camera, and then he will price it according to what it cost him to build, plus some percentage of profit margin. In my opinion, it is not really our place here to tell him or even suggest to him what that profit margin should be.
 
I'm hoping and guessing something like this will never happen. RED is for professionals. A $1000 pricetag is not. I can already hear the discussions with some snobby DPs saying they don't want to shoot RED, because "RED? That's the guys with the camcorder for hobbyists, right?" As much as I would love to pay less for pro gear, the price tag does help differntiate pros from others.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Jim has stated publicly that he will NOT build a camera to a price spec. He said that trying to do so with Scarlet was a mistake. In other words, he will only build a great camera, and then he will price it according to what it cost him to build, plus some percentage of profit margin. In my opinion, it is not really our place here to tell him or even suggest to him what that profit margin should be.
Click to expand...

Building a camera to a certain price point is what the other guys do. And look what it does to their products. It gives minimally incremental upgrades in most cases, which trickle-down every year or two. I don't want to see RED do that, ever.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top