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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Support Equipment savings

Hans von Sonntag said:
Some one mentioned above the longivety of cine-gear. Imagine you run a rental house. Imagine you've got a lot of 35mm and S16 gear, cameras as well as lenses, mattboxes, etc. Now there's a new camera, let's say Arri 235. You buy the the camera but not necessarily new lenses and all the stuff; you've got it already. The big investment for a rental-house is not the camera-body. An Arri 235 body is about 30k, but an Angenieux Optimo zoom 57k. The same with RED. Consider RED as a digital 35mm camera-body. This is what rental-houses think about RED. Some book one or two already, some are more conservative and wait until the market tells them to buy one. RED is going to replace 35mm/S16/HDCAM-cameras but not the gear. So, the market for highend cinegear, especially lenses will not increase that much. A RED ONE with A RED zoom, mattbox, follow-focus, computer for converting etc. is not a cheap camera-system. RED is not going to replace the DV/HDV video-cameras and will conquer this considerably big market. Some of us will take the opportunity (how fantastic) and jump on an entirely new level (hopefully with good scripts). But in the end a great lens costs a lot to manufacture and RED deserves great lenses. If you don't have the budget now rent them, get addicted, save money and buy the one you like most. Good gear is costly and always will be.

My 1.0 cent,

Hans
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As filmography booms with RED, and thousands of filmographers appear and the need for lenses rises, the prices will eventually go down, for at least 30-40 %.
Good gear WILL always be costly, but not like this.

I see what Jim has done with sunglasses. From scratch.
He didn't have to use titanium.
But he did. He he.

Do you really think he will settle with mid quality lens?
And then - the others will have to follow.
 
omen said:
As filmography booms with RED, and thousands of filmographers appear and the need for lenses rises, the prices will eventually go down, for at least 30-40 %.
Good gear WILL always be costly, but not like this.

I see what Jim has done with sunglasses. From scratch.
He didn't have to use titanium.
But he did. He he.

Do you really think he will settle with mid quality lens?
And then - the others will have to follow.
Click to expand...

Hi,

I think you will find the second hand value of equipment is based on supply & demand. That is why I have been able to buy 35mm motion picture equipment at 5c to the $1.00 new cost price. Lenses I have paid upto 10% of new cost.

Stephen
 
Hans

I totally understand the difference between okay gear and high quality gear. The thing is like a lot of others I do a wide variety of production value shoots. On the big $$ stuff I can just rent all the support stuff I want. On the cheaper corporate stuff though I need a purchased kit option. So there is definately a place for decent quality support gear at a reasonable price for shoots like this and there will be as high demand from many red owners looking for it. I would love to buy a ARRI gear head but instead will rent one on the big stuff and probably buy an Occonor 2060 HDS or equivlant.
 
How many matte boxes and follow focus units do you think the entire population of the world needs on a yearly basis? A couple thousand? Maybe.

And if you sold them a matte box and follow focus, how long do you think that product will last before you'd need to buy a new one? Five years? Ten years?

It's called economics of scale. It's amazing how few people on these boards truly understand that. It appears everyone wants these small companies like Chrosziel to lose money just so they can buy a high-quality matte box for $199.

Even with RED adding several camera units to the world market, how many do you think they'll produce this year? 2000? 2500?

How many of those new RED owners do you think will want to buy a matte box? Half? So that 1000-1250 matte boxes being purchased by new RED owners. And just because you might be in the matte box business it doesn't mean you can count on selling 1000 units. If you're Chrosziel or ARRI you might get 20% of that market share. So what kind of impact does RED really have on their business? Maybe selling 200 additional units a year.

I don't know about you, but if I were manufacturing a product for a limited market with a long shelf life I don't think I'd start slashing my pricing by 75% so that Joe Blow filmmaker in Tallahassee doesn't think I'm "raping" him.
 
Kits for courses

Kits for courses

I am with Finner here. Unless you are plenty busy with higher end work then many of us need to do other more cost conscious genres in between to pay the bills. In terms of sticks, bricks, mics, matte box, etc a lot of us who are veteran owner/operators already have "decent" kit. I think the biggest challenge is the glass - of course once I get my Red sourced 18-85mm zoom I will have a roughly $32K kit (body, zoom, RedDrive mags) that will shoot the socks off of virtually anything short of a Red or 35mm film cam with a high end cine lens.

The problem is having the RedOne be a doorstop until the RedZoom ships, unless of course the B4 mount happens quickly :) so I can just pull the lens off my current camera. I think the use of good still lenses is a great option creatively but it would be tough for fast paced corporate stuff - of course I will likely get to test that theory and report back before the year is out :D
 
What I'd love to see is a list of recommended gear for different applications and price points. Something like:

INDIE FILMMAKER PACKAGE - Around $27,000
RED ONE w/720p LCD ($17,500)
Red Flash ($1,000)
Nikon 17-35mm F2.8 ($1,500)
Nikon 50mm F1.4 ($250)
Red Rails ($1,500???)
Redrock Mattebox ($500)
Redrock Follow Focus ($645)
Cartoni F103 Tripod System ($1,500)
Headphones ($100)
Shotgun mic, boom stick, shockmount, XLR cable (~$500)
Extra battery (~$200?)
Lowel DV Creator 44 Lighting Kit ($1700)

Then also have a list with mid-range budget in mind, and one with high-end equipment.

A list like this, but with their own product and brand recommendations (and where to buy them) would be fantastic. Maybe with some sample images taken using those products.
 
Robert Sanders said:
How many matte boxes and follow focus units do you think the entire population of the world needs on a yearly basis? A couple thousand? Maybe.

And if you sold them a matte box and follow focus, how long do you think that product will last before you'd need to buy a new one? Five years? Ten years?

It's called economics of scale. It's amazing how few people on these boards truly understand that. It appears everyone wants these small companies like Chrosziel to lose money just so they can buy a high-quality matte box for $199.

Even with RED adding several camera units to the world market, how many do you think they'll produce this year? 2000? 2500?

How many of those new RED owners do you think will want to buy a matte box? Half? So that 1000-1250 matte boxes being purchased by new RED owners. And just because you might be in the matte box business it doesn't mean you can count on selling 1000 units. If you're Chrosziel or ARRI you might get 20% of that market share. So what kind of impact does RED really have on their business? Maybe selling 200 additional units a year.

I don't know about you, but if I were manufacturing a product for a limited market with a long shelf life I don't think I'd start slashing my pricing by 75% so that Joe Blow filmmaker in Tallahassee doesn't think I'm "raping" him.
Click to expand...

No one is asking for the "slashed" prices you are mentioning here. If you can honestly justify the reason that a matte box costs $5,000 and up you should be a salesman.

We all get it Robby STUFF costs money. But the we are not looking to find the absolute highest quality equipment for $100 that is clear to a five year old that it would be dumb to expect that so there is no need for you to be so condescending. There are a lot of people on here with years of experience and that have worked with many brands of cameras and equipment. You should really take that into consideration before you post.

All people are asking for is good equipment at a fair price. It's not to much to ask for.
 
Finner, I agree 100%. Awesome, reliable, cutting edge equipment for a good price is key. One of the reasons that things cost so much is that alot of these companies base their entire business model on one product so they basically need to charge an arm and a leg to stay afloat. If they were to diversify and make a broader range of products you would probably see lower prices. Theres tons of support equipment that can benefit from the RED culture and it's just a matter of time before you are going to see some drastic price drops.
 
Finner,

I am absolutely with you, concerning prices of matteboxes and s. o. - Arri for instance, where value and price obviously don't fit. Same happens with a lot of other gear. But there are companies like Chrosziel and may be others I don't know yet which build decent stuff for a much more down-to-the-ground price. I don't get a 6x6 Mattebox made by Chrosziel yet but in future I probably will - if there is a market.
Lenses are a different topic. A week a go I did a lens-test for a upcoming job. I tested a Cooke Zoom 20-100 I haven't shot with for years. I tried it on the Camera and loved it. Great lens! Mellow, but not too soft, giving you a unique depth in the picture. Cost: 3.5k -5k. Used. An Arri/Zeiss Masterprime 3 times more expensive is much sharper but do I want this? And the depth of the Cooke is still something special the prime lens does not have. Lenses are a matter of taste like music instruments. The newest and priciest is not always the best. This is the reason why there is such a big market for vintage music instruments. Many lenses and their "sound" have to be rediscovered. Great times for the clever "cinematic archaeologist". I'm already digging and I am not going to my bank and say: Hey, I need another 100k for Zeiss glass - just to easy (and to expensive). Unfortunately you cant't do that with matteboxes, followfocus, batteries, so again I am totally with you.
 
I want everything and I want it free...and I also want it made of solid platinum. Is that too much for frickin' ask for? :)

Oh yeah...group buy could be interesting. It would be even more interesting to me if it were just a group of companies that would offer a discount if purchasing through RED. I'm not too keen on being stuck to a specific package, but I'm not sure if that's what's being discussed entirely.
 
As a "Mac-centric" company, I think it's safe to assume they have been talking to Apple since the very beginnings. I'd be willing to bet Apple might be basing their rumored upcoming FC extreme with the ability to handle red 4k workflow.

I'd also guess that the price of the Red Body will go up after NAB - but not a lot. Let's say $22,500.00
 
Michael Struthers said:
I'd be willing to bet Apple might be basing their rumored upcoming FC extreme with the ability to handle red 4k workflow.
Click to expand...

I thought Final Cut Extreme was now acknowledged to be a myth. Graeme even said so on DVXUser.
 
Michael Struthers said:
As a "Mac-centric" company, I think it's safe to assume they have been talking to Apple since the very beginnings. I'd be willing to bet Apple might be basing their rumored upcoming FC extreme with the ability to handle red 4k workflow.

I'd also guess that the price of the Red Body will go up after NAB - but not a lot. Let's say $22,500.00
Click to expand...

my bet is US $ 60,000.00 as it would be in a price range of "cheaper" HD cameras (like Varicam, etc...). Why should RED lose its money?
 
Blair:
Give Google a try. People tend to find the 20-100 an old lens since Cooke introduced in the 80ies the 18-100 which covers the classic range of an Zeiss prime set - by focal length not by look and feel. An used 18-100 is around 12k-15k.

Chuck:
Cooke 35mm lenses cover at least 35mm academy. This will do 4k on RED, as far as I know.

Hans
 
Hans von Sonntag said:
Blair:
Give Google a try. People tend to find the 20-100 an old lens since Cooke introduced in the 80ies the 18-100 which covers the classic range of an Zeiss prime set - by focal length not by look and feel. An used 18-100 is around 12k-15k.

Chuck:
Cooke 35mm lenses cover at least 35mm academy. This will do 4k on RED, as far as I know.

Hans
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Hi Hans,

If the lens just covers Academy ( .631" x .868" or 16.03mm x 22.05mm ) it won't cover Red full frame, which If I remember right is xxx x 24.4mm. The lens would have to be capable of covering 35mm full apreture ( .735" x .980" or 18.67mm x 24.89mm ). I think.

Chuck
 
Hi,

My Cooke 20-100 seems to cover S35 when the front baffel is removed. However on a digital camera it is possible it might vignette. I know of several cine lenses that will cover S35 but will vignette with a P+S technic adapter! Cooke S3 18mm is an example.

Expect a 20-100 Cooke to cost from $2500-5000. I don't think you will see much difference in quality. I understand some of the glass is the same.

If you look at Cooke & Arg. websites current lenses only cover Academy (in theory)

Stephen
 
I agree with the general point that it should be possible to make and sell this stuff a bit cheaper, but only if you make the leap of faith that you are going to sell greater volume by dropping prices. This is what Red are doing, they have seen the hole in the market and are betting they can sell volume if the price is right. The popularity of the 35mm adapters is testament to the demand, look how the prices of used glass has risen.

Hans von Sonntag said:
... - Arri for instance, where value and price obviously don't fit. Same happens with a lot of other gear. But there are companies like Chrosziel and may be others I don't know yet which build decent stuff for a much more down-to-the-ground price...
Click to expand...

I am not sure I totally agree with the particular comparison between Chrosziel and Arri though. Arri does make a lot of pricier kit, but I think that is because it tends to be more rugged. If you look at equivalent products and compare the price they aren't wildly different. Arri MB19 + top flag (1650 Euro), Chrosziel 840-13 (1640 EURO). I am not saying you can't spend a lot more in the Arri superstore, but it isn't comparing like with like.

M
 
I presume that means its going to be fine for 4k though doesn't it Stephen.

M
 
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