Red Sue Sony - Sony replies on their web site

[Pablo Moreno]

I read that, Aptina, the sensor manufacturer and Sony are licensing each other technologies, so The big guy is going to come up with something new. I checked those sensors at their website, and they have features like auto HDR and global shutter, who knows..

 

[Paul Hudson]

This is the beginning of a gigantic Japanese Tsunami of 4 and 5K cameras. The Japanese have never been great creators of technology but they have been at copying existing technology, improving it and then providing the product for less than the original. It happened to our consumer electronics and auto business and it will happen with cameras. Sony, Panasonic, Canon and the like are HUGE corporations and in time may very well bury RED.

 

[Liana]

and then providing the product for less than the original.

This has not been true so far in the realm of digital motion cameras, as Red has comprehensively beaten Japanese companies on price as well as performance. If anything, Japanese companies like Sony seem determined to charge as premium a price as possible.

If there's to be a price war I welcome it. Consumers win.

 

[Paul Harb]

My point was in response to the poster who said Alexa and Epic are different markets, Alexa TV, Epic features. We werent talking about film, we were specifically talking about the Epic and Alexa markets. I was pointing out that quite a few oscar noms were shot on Alexa. Get it now?

Most of this year's oscar noms were shot on analog film, what's your point again?

 

[Paul Harb]

I dont promote anything.

I think Alexa makes gorgeous images as does Red as does Sony.

My business model has not much to do with my cameras, I use them to shoot but I dont make a living selling my cameras thankfully..., for the money they were a good deal for what I can do with them compared to the competition (this is changing fast)...but there is no doubt in my mind there is a trade off that comes with it, like workflow issues and ergonomics and something I didnt account for which is trying to see through the fanboy clouds and stay grounded in reality. I chose Red because I kinda like the whole hacker camera idea, just kinda how I see the Red camera and I mean that in a good way. Yes I do own two Epic M's which means I invested some real money into Red.

What I cant stand and what seems to get me in trouble on here with other users is responding to the blind devotion. Its unlike anything I have ever seen so I guess that kinda bums me out. But Im starting to learn I probably just shouldnt get involved...Sometimes I cant help myself. Reduser is an interesting place, I think sometimes maybe it does Red as a company a disservice to the outside world. I do however very much enjoy the exchange of ideas, sharing workflow tips and the stuff that has to do with making pretty images.

Hopefully I wont get attacked for this post by hardcore Scarlet owners that want their Dragon sensor for free.

Paul, curiosity has finally gotten the best of me and I have to ask... why do you often promote Alexa and even Sony IIRC some of your past posts, and at the same time you seem to be sticking it to RED, while your signature says you own 2 Epic Ms? Doesn't this go against your business model?

 

[Peter Majtan]

Hopefully I wont get attacked for this post by hardcore Scarlet owners that want their Dragon sensor for free.

I actually like your point of view and largely agree with your post. But you got me on that last bit... I know quite a few Scarlet owners (and yes - I am one myself) - but I am not aware of a single one that is asking for the Dragon update for free - do you mind pointing at least one out?

Peter

 

[Paul Harb]

I was exaggerating I admit for dramatic effect. Now you see why I get myself in trouble here? lol

I actually like your point of view and largely agree with your post. But you got me on that last bit... I know quite a few Scarlet owners (and yes - I am one myself) - but I am not aware of a single one that is asking for the Dragon update for free - do you mind pointing at least one out?

Peter

 

[Peter Majtan]

I was exaggerating I admit for dramatic effect. Now you see why I get myself in trouble here? lol

There will be a lot less "drama" and "trouble" here if people leave the sarcasm out. And - which I agree with you on - the fanboyizm too...

Peter

 

[Elsie N]

I dont promote anything.

I think Alexa makes gorgeous images as does Red as does Sony.

My business model has not much to do with my cameras, I use them to shoot but I dont make a living selling my cameras thankfully..., for the money they were a good deal for what I can do with them compared to the competition (this is changing fast)...but there is no doubt in my mind there is a trade off that comes with it, like workflow issues and ergonomics and something I didnt account for which is trying to see through the fanboy clouds and stay grounded in reality. I chose Red because I kinda like the whole hacker camera idea, just kinda how I see the Red camera and I mean that in a good way. Yes I do own two Epic M's which means I invested some real money into Red.

What I cant stand and what seems to get me in trouble on here with other users is responding to the blind devotion. Its unlike anything I have ever seen so I guess that kinda bums me out. But Im starting to learn I probably just shouldnt get involved...Sometimes I cant help myself. Reduser is an interesting place, I think sometimes maybe it does Red as a company a disservice to the outside world. I do however very much enjoy the exchange of ideas, sharing workflow tips and the stuff that has to do with making pretty images.

Hopefully I wont get attacked for this post by hardcore Scarlet owners that want their Dragon sensor for free.

O.K., just wondering. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Bit sad this is how business is done these days. It is not enough to do well for yourself, you also have to make sure that others cannot compete. Not aimed at Red, if tables were turned I have no doubt Sony et al would do the same to Red.

I wouldn't bet on that.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Any one remember when Sony tried to jump on Discreet / Autodesk Inferno/flame like 10 years back... that came to an end that would in comparison be like Sony now just called back all their 4k cameras and never took such path again. In other words Autodesk laywers just put the whole "sony flame killer" to a complete stop. From being the new big thing it was a dead product overnight... And then it was not something cheap as a F65 or epic. It was a whole efx/editing system for about 900k USD that Sony put to rest just not to get into a deeper legal battle with Autodesk.

Now Autodesk is a far bigger company than RED, In some ways even bigger than Sony but I would not be shocked if Sony does pull back their new cameras.

 

[Elsie N]

I think fanboi gets a bad rap on this forum.

For the record, I don't consider myself a fanboi... more like a fanman... because I support Red Digital Cinema products due to their value and I show the same loyalty to the company that I believe the company has shown to its customers.

For the life of me I cannot understand why some on here consistently speak out against the company from one side of their mouth while begrudgingly admitting that they like their products. It's almost like they want to be in the anti-establishment gang, meaning they constantly dissent just to prove they are their own man. (Sounds like a self-esteem issue.)

It takes maturity to stand up for an individual or in this case, a company when in the course of their business they do something that isn't in total accord with what everyone feels or desires... especially if others are chiming in expressing dissent.

In my mind there is nothing wrong with supporting a company (especially on their own website '-) that has proven time and again to be on the cutting edge of producing the technology that has made it possible for the uncommon, common man and woman to have a high performance way to get their ideas in front of an audience.

All I'm saying is if anyone is referred to as a fanboi, thank the poster and wear the badge proudly, because you get it.

 

[Bruce Allen]

This is the beginning of a gigantic Japanese Tsunami of 4 and 5K cameras. The Japanese have never been great creators of technology but they have been at copying existing technology, improving it and then providing the product for less than the original.

Well, the British kinda feel similarly about the Americans - there is a lot of stuff that they pioneered and then the Americans commercialized it and marketed it better and crushed them

To be honest, I think it is a bunch of stereotypes.

Anyway, when it comes to using digital cameras for cinema, you have to give credit to Sony and the American filmmakers who pushed them (Lucas etc).

If there were no F900, would there be a RED today?

If there was another American company making a camera capable of decent resolution cinema acquisition that the F900 is a copy of, let us know of course!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Elsie N]

Well, the British kinda feel similarly about the Americans - there is a lot of stuff that they pioneered and then the Americans commercialized it and marketed it better and crushed them

To be honest, I think it is a bunch of stereotypes.

Anyway, when it comes to using digital cameras for cinema, you have to give credit to Sony and the American filmmakers who pushed them (Lucas etc).

If there were no F900, would there be a RED today?

If there was another American company making a camera capable of decent resolution cinema acquisition that the F900 is a copy of, let us know of course!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Thank goodness all these camera companies aren't in collusion. It is in the customer's best interest that they remain independent of one another and do not co-operate. That would be going back to the old ways, IMO.

aside: Edit: This part of my comments are being taken down after having a discussion off forum that resulted in a better understanding.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Just the facts please

Just the facts please

Just to keep things fair let's remember that one company (or category of companies) using the courts/pols to go "after" another for tactical reasons is fundamentally different than responding when someone breaks down the door and steals your IP. I don't know the specifics of the complaint so this is not meant to demonize or exonerate any particular party in the current action. Taking sides with inadequate information is just not very smart and citing other cases as comparatives that by their nature are complex webs of meanings/nomenclature is more likely to mislead than inform.

I have been on this earth too long to ignore the dynamics of political power plays in determining regulatory environments that effectively pick the winners in economic competition. That said, here's to hoping that on the digital frontier there is honor and that the empirical facts in evidence determine the outcome.

Cheers - #19

 

[Paul S.]

This is the beginning of a gigantic Japanese Tsunami of 4 and 5K cameras. The Japanese have never been great creators of technology but they have been at copying existing technology, improving it and then providing the product for less than the original. It happened to our consumer electronics and auto business and it will happen with cameras. Sony, Panasonic, Canon and the like are HUGE corporations and in time may very well bury RED.

That's why it's vital that RED continue to strive to move forward and remain one step ahead, and it sounds as if Dragon is them doing exactly that. They could have comfortably sat back and let Epic be their contribution to the market for a good few years. What's equally important though, is that they find a way to help move their customers along with that progress, and not let them drift towards the cheaper, easier option of following just behind the cutting edge - and we'll see shortly how that pans out.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I think the F55 is aimed squarely at the Alexa and TV production, if you ask me. I'm not saying that Red isn't a competitor, just that it looks to me like Sony developed this camera for a specific market, and tailored the workflow to be as simple and easy as possible. It's interesting to me that all the "new" Alexa models also streamline the workflow and make the simul Raw & DNxHD copies with zero muss and fuss. It would seem for them, it's all about making post fast, not about how many pixels they can cram into the camera.

Yeah but if you hear the rhetoric in NY, the Sony Reps are making it very clear to rental houses that their new cameras have their sights targeted on RED as well. I'm hearing of language like "These new cameras are going to wipe RED off the map", etc, etc.

It looks like Sony has two whack jobs in mind: Alexa and RED.

They are not fucking around.

Sony was skeptical about 4K for years, but now that they'v seen it's commercial potential, they clearly want to step in and monetize all it's future value (hence their scalable 4k options amongst an entire lineup of diversely priced cameras).

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

4K or Bust

4K or Bust

Sony is also a company under financial duress so standing pat is not a viable option. Putting their eggs in the 4K (UHD) basket is hardly risk free, pro and consumer spaces, but it does leverage a competency Sony has built over the last decade.

If I were marketing 4K with Sony's portfolio I'd sure stress that 4K/UHD heritage. Ultimately, I don't think Sony has any better card to play than 4K/UHD; an emerging market category with exponential growth potential, head start on the field, the security of knowing that, even if it takes longer than hoped, higher resolution motion content will eventually supersede current formats. The next thing I would do is educate and evangelize 4K/UHD technology vs selling the brand. Once the tech establishes, demand for the devices will take care of itself. Its also far easier to connect with potential customers via educational materials, tech forums, etc vs straight up advertising messages that most people filter so deftly its just white noise. Just my 2 cents.

Cheers - #19

 

[Michael Brennan]

If anything, Japanese companies like Sony seem determined to charge as premium a price as possible.

Broadcast division have a history of doing that, but Sony consumer accidently make crossover product (like DV) which is priced as low as possible.


Mike Brennan

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Sony is also a company under financial duress so standing pat is not a viable option.
Cheers - #19

Quite true, although one must also keep in mind that SONY has plenty of assets that can be converted into a war chest. For example, the following is quoted from TV Technology published last Thursday:

DEBORAH D. MCADAMS /
02.28.2013 10:02AM
Sony Corp. Announces Sale of Sony City Osaki Office Building and Premises
Net proceeds of $446.5 million expected
TOKYO-- Sony Corp. today announced that it has sold its Sony City Osaki office building and premises to Nippon Building Fund Inc. and a Japanese institutional investor. The sale was structured such that Sony placed the office building and premises in a trust and then sold the trust beneficiary rights. Sony and other Sony Group businesses will remain in the building for a period of five years after the sale under a lease agreement entered into separately.

The sale price is 111.1 billion yen (US $1.21 billion in today’s exhange rates). After deducting expenses related to transaction costs, Sony received net cash proceeds today of 110 billion yen (US $1.198 billion). As a result of the sale, Sony expects to realize a gain on the sale of approximately 41 billion yen (US $446.5 million), to be recorded as operating income, in the fourth quarter of the fiscal year ending March 31, 2013.

As stated on Feb. 7, 2013 in the announcement of Sony’s forecast for consolidated financial results for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2013, Sony has identified certain assets for possible sale as part of an initiative to transform its business portfolio and reorganize its assets. This sale was conducted as a part of that initiative. While this sale was aniticipated and the potential gain on the sale was taken into account at the time of the forecast, Sony is currently reevaluating the aggregate impact of this sale and other factors on the forecast.

The sale was conducted as a part of a corporate reorganization.
- See more at: http://www.tvtechnology.com/article...ding-and-premises/218013#sthash.090qnTxf.dpuf