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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED STATION

Media format on the RED One is the equivalent of a quick format. Essentially it just wipes the FAT clean and then creates the new magazine profiles and RDM folder.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Media format on the RED One is the equivalent of a quick format. Essentially it just wipes the FAT clean and then creates the new magazine profiles and RDM folder.
Click to expand...

I guess the question just comes down to if the SSD drives are faster even when a little slower then the highest demand from the RED in terms of data rate. If it's always faster, then it just doesn't matter! :)
 
Rick Burnett said:
I guess the question just comes down to if the SSD drives are faster even when a little slower then the highest demand from the RED in terms of data rate. If it's always faster, then it just doesn't matter! :)
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Having shot a lot with the current RED-RAMs, I'm not worried about it. I've owned two of them for a year, actually the first one since Feb '09 I think. They have not skipped a beat and shoot 2K @ 120fps and 4.5K RC42 just fine. I only shoot to RED RAM and CF card, no longer have any RED Drives for my camera.

The CF cards are holding up well and they are the same thing as an SSD, just smaller capacity and smaller controller in a smaller package.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Having shot a lot with the current RED-RAMs, I'm not worried about it. I've owned two of them for a year, actually the first one since Feb '09 I think. They have not skipped a beat and shoot 2K @ 120fps and 4.5K RC42 just fine. I only shoot to RED RAM and CF card, no longer have any RED Drives for my camera.

The CF cards are holding up well and they are the same thing as an SSD, just smaller capacity and smaller controller in a smaller package.
Click to expand...

I am planning on shooting to CF for my scarlet as well as I don't think I need the added space of the SSD, but that is great to know they work so well.
 
Rick Burnett said:
Thanks for pointing that out. It brings up an interesting question, when using an SSD with a Red camera, does it do the full format where it actually clears out all the pages?

It also has me nervous about OSX (non red related). I was going to get an SSD for my laptop, but I use my drives close to full. Sounds like I'd have to get one of the really fast SSD drives so that when it does slow down, it's not slower than spinning media speeds.
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My understanding is that .R3D files are written as a series of 2GB chunks.

The SSD perfomance issue I was describing above was a response to the degradation you reported regarding SSD's in "regular" use on a PC. The specific issue raises it's head whent the amount of data needing to be written will fit within the number of "available" (but not yet cleared) pages on a block that also contains one or more valid pages.

In that case, the existing page must be moved to a different block, the current block cleared, and then your pending data can write. Many small files exacerbates this problem.

In the case of the filesystem being cleared, and and all pages within the blocks avaialble to be cleared without having to shuttle valid data around, you eliminate one step, although you still have to clear a block before you can overwrite it (unlike spinning media). So while there will be some degradation, it's not as bad as the first scenario.

Of course, RED might mitigate that entirlely by doing a block-clear at format time, in which case the media then can simply write to as many consecutive pages/blocks as it wants with no penalty whatsoever. This is the equivalent of using the drive manufacturer's low-level format utility which basically returns the drive to like-new condition.

Good primer on this here: http://www.anandtech.com/show/2738/8

-sc
 
Very interesting stuff, thanks for the read. I actually didn't have a clue on all these issues with SSD. I never thought for a second that the Red One and the current SSD line had any issues, i was just curious if the current drives could handle the new data rates on the new Red cameras.
 
Zul said:
Question:

Would one be able to use other CF cards with the RED CF Reader?

Let's say for dumping out videos shot on Canon 5D/7D? *hides*
Click to expand...

Rick Burnett said:
I'll let you know :) I will be trying this. I'm also going to get a REALLY fast low capacity card so I can test the upper end range of my Lexar versus this one.
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Yea, that's cool. Do inform when you've tested it. It'll be very much appreciated!
 
I think you guys are over-analyzing the SSD issue. First of all, not all SSDs operate that way. Most of what you are describing has to do with the internal memory controller design and implementation. NAND FLASH memory can read and write individual bytes just as magnetic media can. Not all FLASH devices or SSDs operate with the paging implementation being discussed here.

People tend to ignore the fact that CF, SD and other small FLASH devices are also in fact "SSDs". Placing NAND FLASH products into a higher capacity configuration in a larger form factor does not suddenly make them a different device or implicitly imply they are now an "SSD" when something smaller like a CF card is not. Nor does it mandate a different operational approach. These are all design considerations to be made and implemented by the manufacturer. Pushing incoming data over to unused blocks or pages is commonly used for FLASH-based devices in order to dramatically increase perceptual write performance. It works out OK until the device starts reaching capacity. Then it has to reset and clear bytes/blocks before writing new data and the performance comes back down to earth.

This is a big reason why RED has such a hard time qualifying third-party CF cards for use on the camera. Many new cards are claiming 60MB/s or 90MB/s, but they can not really do this. They can sustain rates close to that for brief periods of time under ideal conditions, often even burst faster than that, but performance is erratic and becomes increasingly more so as the devices fill up. A write performance graph for most high-performance CF cards looks just like a heart monitor cardiograph of someone who just about OD'd on crack after downing half a bottle of vodka. Once full, these cards can no longer reach advertised speeds. In the case of the RED One and how it writes to the cards - direct UDMA block-level access, it is dumping sequential data to the device, forcing it to do straight reset-write operations. Suddenly that hot new 60MB/s CF card is really a 13MB/s CF card.

Steven, R3D files are indeed written in 2GB chunks. This is actually a limitation imposed by the FAT file system chosen for RED media. There are both advantages and disadvantages to this, which have been hashed over here quite a bit.

As for zeroing out storage media, as in a low-level format, it currently takes about 35 minutes via FW-800 for a single pass on the 128GB RED-RAM. I know because I have to do it here and there, and many times multiple passes with alternating or randomized data, after shooting certain government projects. Or here and there just to keep prying [REDUNDEAD] eyes from viewing.

That said, you're not going to get a full format done on-camera or in a production environment.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
I think you guys are over-analyzing the SSD issue. First of all, not all SSDs operate that way. Most of what you are describing has to do with the internal memory controller design and implementation. NAND FLASH memory can read and write individual bytes just as magnetic media can. Not all FLASH devices or SSDs operate with the paging implementation being discussed here.
Click to expand...


Any links to media suitable for filesystems that that are available?
 
As Jeff points out, determining a super fast CF card is not so easy. I've been searching pages for days and I am *thinking* about trying the sandisk 90MB/s card. Of course, Jeff, have you already tested this card? I'd rather not waste the money on it.

I wonder when the 64 cards will be out from RED. Maybe I'll just get one of those instead.
 
Sorry guys.. gotta wait on one more FCC certification before we can ship..

Good old Rules and Regulations to ruin all our fun :)
 
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