Red Scarlet vs BMC

[Bob Gundu]

Jarred owning bmcuser.com just confirms the fact that BMC is high grade cinema camera when it comes to image quality.

Hmmm. He started that site before anyone even had the camera.

 

[Phil Holland]

First off. Merry Christmas.


Second. There is a bucket full of crazy in this thread. And that's fine. Everybody is absolutely entitled to their own opinion. However, there is a value to an educated and informed opinion.

I might be the only guy in the world who actually enjoys stress testing cameras. I've tested and shot with all of the cameras mentioned in this thread. There was a time when there were camera tests done ahead of every feature shoot. They were tests that needed to be done. They still happen pretty often, just a bit rarer these days. But they always happen whenever a new capture device is released, especially if it's being considered for a project.

BMC is a tremendous value, but comparing it to an Arri Alexa, Red One, Red Scarlet, or Red Epic doesn't make too much sense. You know that about 1 hour into operating the cameras. You know that when working with the material in post. You know that when you project the images at 2K and 4K.

If you are concerned with 1080p/2K delivery. Cool. I'm interested primarily in 4K delivery myself, especially these days. However, if you don't think that any of the Red cameras can produce a image worthy of 2K or 4K delivery you haven't been to the movies in a few years.

Everybody must choose the right tool for them. Cost, image quality, and feature set are all part of that equation. In experienced hands you can create high quality images with all of these cameras. You have to make decisions though. Sensor size, resolution, color reproduction, etc.... However, the gross misconception of pleasing skin tones not coming from Red cameras only shows a dated opinion that has lived on through word of mouth. The color science can change and improve at anytime, but actually sculpting final color out of REDCODE is extremely flexible and honestly you can do damn near anything you want with it.

Those are 720p. Here's a 4K version of the last image: http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/reduser/phfx_85mmF5DFCC201212.jpg


So back onto the actual topic of this thread. Red Scarlet versus BMC. If we are talking overall image quality alone, Scarlet, and the conversation ends there.


Third. If you are considering purchasing a camera by all means read reviews, look at web encoded/optimized samples, and read those spec sheets. Always consider exactly where that information comes from as well. But I implore you to download source files and even go to the length of actually renting and testing out the camera itself. If that camera feels right in that sort of glass slipper sort of way then that's the camera for you.


Fourth. With any tool comes a learning curve. Practice, experimenting, experience, and skill can all attribute to creating stunning images and more importantly confidence in knowing your camera system.


Fifth. Don't eat too many cookies today.

 

[Paul Ellington]

First off. Merry Christmas.


Second. There is a bucket full of crazy in this thread. And that's fine. Everybody is absolutely entitled to their own opinion. However, there is a value to an educated and informed opinion.

I might be the only guy in the world who actually enjoys stress testing cameras. I've tested and shot with all of the cameras mentioned in this thread. There was a time when there were camera tests done ahead of every feature shoot. They were tests that needed to be done. They still happen pretty often, just a bit rarer these days. But they always happen whenever a new capture device is released, especially if it's being considered for a project.

BMC is a tremendous value, but comparing it to an Arri Alexa, Red One, Red Scarlet, or Red Epic doesn't make too much sense. You know that about 1 hour into operating the cameras. You know that when working with the material in post. You know that when you project the images at 2K and 4K.

If you are concerned with 1080p/2K delivery. Cool. I'm interested primarily in 4K delivery myself, especially these days. However, if you don't think that any of the Red cameras can produce a image worthy of 2K or 4K delivery you haven't been to the movies in a few years.

Everybody must choose the right tool for them. Cost, image quality, and feature set are all part of that equation. In experienced hands you can create high quality images with all of these cameras. You have to make decisions though. Sensor size, resolution, color reproduction, etc.... However, the gross misconception of pleasing skin tones not coming from Red cameras only shows a dated opinion that has lived on through word of mouth. The color science can change and improve at anytime, but actually sculpting final color out of REDCODE is extremely flexible and honestly you can do damn near anything you want with it.

Those are 720p. Here's a 4K version of the last image: http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/reduser/phfx_85mmF5DFCC201212.jpg


So back onto the actual topic of this thread. Red Scarlet versus BMC. If we are talking image quality alone, Scarlet, and the conversation ends there.


Third. If you are considering purchasing a camera by all means read reviews, look at web encoded/optimized samples, and read those spec sheets. Always consider exactly where that information comes from as well. But I implore you to download source files and even go to the length of actually renting and testing out the camera itself. If that camera feels right in that sort of glass slipper sort of way then that's the camera for you.


Fourth. With any tool comes a learning curve. Practice, experimenting, experience, and skill can all attribute to creating stunning images and more importantly confidence in knowing your camera system.


Fifth. Don't eat too many cookies today.

Merry Christmas Sir ... Yeah ... DSLR's being compared to a Scarlet and BMC ... You hit one thing ( as well as all the others ) that really bothered me ... The warmer the sensors on DSLR's and smaller cameras got, the softer the image. Maybe this has gotten better, I don't know ... Strictly been shooting on my red for awhile now...

Have cookies for me.

- Paul.

 

[Josh Snyder]

Hmmm. He started that site before anyone even had the camera.

Before any customer had it.

btw did you read from the last page how bad Jarred wanted to buy BMC?

 

[Josh Snyder]

He also owns DVXuser, so it's more a case of being an astute businessman and seeing opportunities... and less to do with the camera in question.

I note from the BMC user thread that you're now awaiting a BMC camera - are you getting this and an Epic (or Scarlet) now?

The BMC is basically going to be the new 5DMKII for a while over the next few months - especially if they can sort out their production (and then supply) problems.

However, with such a choice of 4K acquisition (& beyond) systems now, all with S35 sized sensors, the BMC will be a niche. A very large niche, I think, but one that will feed the crowd that have moved on from DSLR but can't afford the path to higher end systems like Sony or RED (the same people that find it hard to accept media costs - or the price of an EVF - or the extra costs that VAT/Tax add to systems that are purchased etc).

The smaller than M43 sensor will limit the BMC use in large productions IMO, as the 7D was a good BCam with it's near S35 sensor size - and the 5DMKII was beloved by many due to it's still photography full-frame size. But using the BMC as a Bcam on set might not be as common, as there is a sensor mismatch... but, who knows what'll happen? I think the Cmos jello and moire issues will start to became more prevalent and visible across the 'interweb' once the BMC lands in the hands of less experienced users. Time will tell.

The BMC may produce great images in the right hands, but, as mentioned earlier - it's the hands that are important... for example, check out Kholi's GH2 tests (amongst other cameras he's used).

Anyway, it's Xmas now and the house is filling with the smell of Turkey

Have a Happy Xmas everyone!

Scarlet was supposed to have smaller 2/3 sensor and it wasn't a proplem at all that time. The sensor size was actually prefererd by many users in here. How is the larger BMC sensor suddenly a prolem? Some of the best movies in last few years have been shot with 16mm film cameras.


For people who haven't read it yet (the article why Ryan don't have R1 or EPIC anymore and choosed BMC): http://nofilmschool.com/2012/12/purchasing-digital-cinema-camera-guide-ryanewalters/

 

[Bob Gundu]

Scarlet was supposed to have smaller 2/3 sensor and it wasn't a proplem at all that time. The sensor size was actually prefererd by many users in here. How is the larger BMC sensor suddenly a prolem? Some of the best movies in last few years have been shot with 16mm film cameras.


For people who haven't read it yet (the article why Ryan don't have R1 or EPIC anymore and choosed BMC): http://nofilmschool.com/2012/12/purchasing-digital-cinema-camera-guide-ryanewalters/

Ryan is a good guy, but there are other reasons why he may not be using Red anymore which I won't get into here.

 

[Andy White]

I think Josh has made up his mind that the BMC is for him - after looking at Epic and Scarlet (?)

Josh - correct me if I'm wrong, but have you used/operated/rented any of these cameras yet?

My last comment is really a piece of advice... I'd suggest a few days rental on some camera kit - test out how you feel they work. Rent an Epic, get hold of a BMC - actually try an Alexa. Shoot some test charts on a range of lenses, do some camera tests, see how the sensors works under different conditions... stack filters in your MB to see what results you get.

Make some stress tests and even get some talent in and block out a scene or two. Shoot on location - then shoot tungsten and daylight on-set - vary Redcode settings - compare 5K to 4K to BMC to ArriRaw - consider what your shoot workflow will be... and how you'll manage data on a shoot... give thought to your post workflow and how you manipulate the image.

It's fine posting stuff from various other experienced users... again, for every BMC pro, you'll get an Epic/Scarlet or Alexa advocate.

It sounds like you're defending your choice to buy BMC and using examples to prove that you're making the right choice. That's fine

There is no 'right' choice - it's all about what 'works for you'!

IMO, you won't find the BMC creeping onto many big budget jobs (the way the 5DMKII did) - the DSLR craze is over and the industry is looking towards Alexa. Epic, F5/F55/F65 and the Canons.

But, I'm sure the BMC will make some great stuff in the right hands... I just don't see it as a disruptive technology for the indie filmmaker, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Go out there and make some cool stuff with the BMC (or whatever you end up with)... in the end, it's about your talent... not the tools you use.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Before any customer had it.

btw did you read from the last page how bad Jarred wanted to buy BMC?

Merry Christmas Josh.

For Christmas you should buy yourself a BMC and go out and shoot with it. You've gotten your points across in multiple threads. I'm sure its a great camera. I've loved the samples i've seen from it but I wouldn't trade my Scarlet for it. Once you shoot 4K with a RED with REDCODE I think you'd get it. I loved my Scarlet, still do but jumping to EPIC I have a hard time really seeing myself shoot anything else. The camera is simply amazing even at it's old price of $34,500 or more.

You pay for what you want and what will work for you. If you need an Epic work hard and get one. If you don't need it and a BMC meets your needs just buy the dang thing.

I shoot mostly action sports so I've found the Epic is really the camera I needed. But i've also done overcranking on the Scarlet and been pleasantly surprised with the results. Feel free to PM me if you want to see samples.

Buy or Rent the camera you need for your jobs or personal needs.

With anything there will always be a weakness. The RED's don't quite do it for me in lowlight but the value of resolution and RedCode Raw are enough to keep me on board. As is the customer service. The Bomb squad reps are astounding.

I am willing to pay to play with the customer service you get from RED. My rep did me a huge favor getting my Epic to me as quickly as possible before I leave for a trip this week. Will BMC or Sony do that for you? It's like anything else, you can go to a huge hardware store and pay a lower price and get the product you want with little to no help or assistance and support along the way. Or you can go to your mom and pop shop and get taken care of properly from start to finish. In the end though after getting an Epic and owning a Scarlet for a year I'd venture to say I probably won't buy a cinema camera from any other company.

Choose your weapon to take to war. And trust me i've had my fair share of issues with my Scarlet and concerns about the gear and firmware as well, many probably remember. I guess I haven't read enough on here from your posts as they most say the same thing or question the releases. Have you used a RED or worked with it in post? I'd be more than happy if your ever around where i'm at to let you test it out or send you files even if you decide its not for you.

 

[Adam J. Craig]

Merry Christmas!

Given that these all are great cameras, I'd say (objectively) that the BMC is a much better value (per dollar) for a limited budget, followed by the epic and then maybe the scarlet. This is assuming you have canon lenses.

I would hope that blackmagic would release a killer camera for 6-8 k that rivals the epic. That would really change the game. From a value stand point, Red suffers a bit mostly because it's such a closed eco system... everything is proprietary... and VERY expensive. $1200 for 128GB SSD! Where as BMC has the attitude of a PC, where more things are much more open and modular (except the battery). Wouldn't it be great if BMC made the firmware open/easily hackable.

Before people get bent out of shape, I LOVE MY SCARLET, clearly red changed the game. It looks like Blackmagic is the new game changer in town now that red is steering away from the lower budget indy guys to the allure of the studios.

edit-- I don't have any evidence that red's steering to the studios other than the marketing materials. So, that's probably not a fair statement.

 

[Adam J. Craig]

Hey Phil, how do you like that color checker passport?

 

[Phil Holland]

Hey Phil, how do you like that color checker passport?

Love them. I've ordered dozens over the three years since they've been released. They have become a very important tool on VFX shoots and are pretty useful for normal production work too. That hard plastic case protects them from light and from being scratched. They are clearly smaller than traditional charts, which makes them very portable. Because of that I can't remember the last time I didn't have one on me during a shoot.

 

[Adam J. Craig]

Phil -

Wow, sounds good...What's the workflow? You slate with the passport? How do you use it in your NLE/CC Software?

I just might have to pick one up tomorrow.

 

[Phil Holland]

What's the workflow? You slate with the passport? How do you use it in your NLE/CC Software?

Many workflows and used for several different intentions. Basic workflow I use Passport Colorchecker or simple Gray Card at the beginning of the shooting day or during the slate. That can be used for traditional white balancing to neutral gray in your color suite of choice. Some color suites have the ability to profile off of traditional color charts or match specific samples. You can also create look up tables and camera profiles using these things using different programs or plug-ins. We have made a program to read these as well for HDR work at one studio I do work for.

The "Creative Enhancement" targets are pretty darn useful when working with mixed or "imperfect" lighting. Initially I didn't see a use for them, but they have been very useful once you get the hang of what they do.

The larger white balance target is pretty useful as well. You can actually use the exposure tools on Scarlet and Epic to balance your exposure to that. Handy if you don't have a light meter around or don't desire to use them.

I don't do any color work in my NLEs really, but these give you accurate color reference that you can use in your color suite of choice.

Basically in post you can use them for simple white balancing, camera calibration, or just figuring out where RGB values land on captured material. In camera great for color reference, white balance, and exposure control.

Oddly, I've also used it as a stand to hold up silent slates. Just handy to have around I guess.

 

[Adam J. Craig]

Great info. Thanks!

 

[Eric Santiago]

First off. Merry Christmas.

Same to you and everyone at REDUSER

Fourth. With any tool comes a learning curve. Practice, experimenting, experience, and skill can all attribute to creating stunning images and more importantly confidence in knowing your camera system.

This is why I am here. To learn and to respect the craft and tools required to get the job done.
I am not here to spread FUD and to make up shit that dont make sense at all.

Phil you have to write a book, you're knowledge is king here and I search all your posts just so I can soak it in

Fifth. Don't eat too many cookies today.

Hmm cookies not so much, turkey...

Again Phil the examples and tips you post are very helpful.

I look forward to seeing more of your work in the near future.

I also aspire to create close to equal the frames you post here

 

[Nick Morrison]

Actually Jarred came onto the BMCUSER forum and made a trade to acquire a BMCC for his collection of cameras. Nice guy

http://bmcuser.com/showthread.php?1587-Whoa-Didn-t-plan-on-this-Got-a-BMC-today/page4

WOW. Jarred is a classy guy! I'd never seen those posts before. Cool!

 

[Nick Morrison]

First off. Merry Christmas.


Second. There is a bucket full of crazy in this thread. And that's fine. Everybody is absolutely entitled to their own opinion. However, there is a value to an educated and informed opinion.

I might be the only guy in the world who actually enjoys stress testing cameras. I've tested and shot with all of the cameras mentioned in this thread. There was a time when there were camera tests done ahead of every feature shoot. They were tests that needed to be done. They still happen pretty often, just a bit rarer these days. But they always happen whenever a new capture device is released, especially if it's being considered for a project.

BMC is a tremendous value, but comparing it to an Arri Alexa, Red One, Red Scarlet, or Red Epic doesn't make too much sense. You know that about 1 hour into operating the cameras. You know that when working with the material in post. You know that when you project the images at 2K and 4K.

If you are concerned with 1080p/2K delivery. Cool. I'm interested primarily in 4K delivery myself, especially these days. However, if you don't think that any of the Red cameras can produce a image worthy of 2K or 4K delivery you haven't been to the movies in a few years.

Everybody must choose the right tool for them. Cost, image quality, and feature set are all part of that equation. In experienced hands you can create high quality images with all of these cameras. You have to make decisions though. Sensor size, resolution, color reproduction, etc.... However, the gross misconception of pleasing skin tones not coming from Red cameras only shows a dated opinion that has lived on through word of mouth. The color science can change and improve at anytime, but actually sculpting final color out of REDCODE is extremely flexible and honestly you can do damn near anything you want with it.

Those are 720p. Here's a 4K version of the last image: http://www.artbyphil.com/temp/reduser/phfx_85mmF5DFCC201212.jpg


So back onto the actual topic of this thread. Red Scarlet versus BMC. If we are talking overall image quality alone, Scarlet, and the conversation ends there.


Third. If you are considering purchasing a camera by all means read reviews, look at web encoded/optimized samples, and read those spec sheets. Always consider exactly where that information comes from as well. But I implore you to download source files and even go to the length of actually renting and testing out the camera itself. If that camera feels right in that sort of glass slipper sort of way then that's the camera for you.


Fourth. With any tool comes a learning curve. Practice, experimenting, experience, and skill can all attribute to creating stunning images and more importantly confidence in knowing your camera system.


Fifth. Don't eat too many cookies today.

Phil what's the exact model and make of your color chart passport? Looks AWESOME!!!

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil what's the exact model and make of your color chart passport? Looks AWESOME!!!

The exact make and model is X-Rite ColorChecker Passport:
http://xritephoto.com/ph_product_overview.aspx?id=1257

X-Rite also owns Gretag-Macbeth and Pantone. I've been using their charts, tools, and even densitometers since I started in this industry. X-Rite's ColorChecker Classic is what many call the standard Macbeth chart. The Passport in a miniature and rugged version of that with additional features.

 

[Phil Holland]

Hmm cookies not so much, turkey...

Again Phil the examples and tips you post are very helpful.

I look forward to seeing more of your work in the near future.

I also aspire to create close to equal the frames you post here

Cheers Eric. It's all about practicing and spending time with the camera. Do that and you'll be on the right track.

 

[Josh Snyder]

WOW. Jarred is a classy guy! I'd never seen those posts before. Cool!

BMC must have gone through the ultimate inspection at RED headquarters