Red Scarlet vs BMC

[dennys bisogno]

I have another comparison factor albeit non-technical

YOU buy a Scarlet (as I just did) and you get in 2-3 weeks a solid proven system. You try to purchase a BMCC ( As I originally tried) and you get silence and backorder confusion. The camera has been trying to go into production (for real) since June and at this point no-one knows when it will be really out - check the forums and feel the frustration.

Now, no one is strange to delays (not even RED) but as of know IF/WHEN I would decide to buy one - probably would wait for a 2.0 and let BM learn how to be a camera manufacture first

 

[Robert Wauu]

I have ordered a Red, and I love the red cameras but anyone who says that the BMCC will not directly compete with the RED Scarlet in sales (or maybe even in performance, the image looks very filmic) is clearly lying to themselves. Exactly the same way Red upset the world with the relatively cheap RED ONE in comparison to other 100 000 dollar cameras.

We have learned to love RED because they did just that to the market and they didn't cripple their products, just what Blackmagic is doing to the market today.
I would not act like a fanboy and be hating on something that is doing just what RED did to the cinema world a couple of years ago, and is still doing with the EPIC

Maybe build 4 will have something amazing for the Scarlet and kick ass )) And when the Dragon is available and RED makes a great deal for the Scarlet owners. Then there will be a totally different story.

But I would still not hate on the BMCC, why would I, I won't lie to myself, the image looks really great. Simple as that.

 

[Joe G.]

The BMC sensor feels more like film and has better highlight rolloff than Scarlet. I like the images better, and they look more like cinema, whereas the Reds always look more like video to me. I just saw a Scarlet video on here, today, and the brights hitting a face looked like video, and not what I'm preferring.

Granted the Dragon sensor will probably turn the whole thing around, but it's not here yet, and it's quite out of my price range.

In the meantime, the BMC is the best bargain in the world today.

 

[dennys bisogno]

I love the BMCC camera and what BM is doing overall - I will still love it more, IF the CAMERA was actually available - right now people do not know if the camera they paid in advance in AUG will be available in MARCH 2013. LOL

 

[DL Fitch]

The BMC sensor feels more like film and has better highlight rolloff than Scarlet. I like the images better, and they look more like cinema, whereas the Reds always look more like video to me. I just saw a Scarlet video on here, today, and the brights hitting a face looked like video, and not what I'm preferring.

I guarantee that once average-user footage starts hitting the web, that perception will change... Imagine how Scarlet would be regarded if RED only put it in the hands of a few DPs of their choosing.

I'd be happy with a BMC for b-camera stuff, and could easily work around the small sensor for that - but there's no way you can get a 'more filmic' look considering the massive hit in depth of field that you'll be taking (even with 1-2 additional stops of DR or better roll offs).

 

[Chris Gurtlinger]

I love the BMCC camera and what BM is doing overall - I will still love it more, IF the CAMERA was actually available - right now people do not know if the camera they paid in advance in AUG will be available in MARCH 2013. LOL

+1 I love what they are trying to do as well, but I jumped ship as well from the "BMCC Fail Boat" (I say this jokingly) I couldn't wait any longer for it! So decided to just spend the extra money on a camera I would get in a reasonable amount of time that is proven and is alot more feature rich compaired to it.

 

[Abraham Lim]

+1 I love what they are trying to do as well, but I jumped ship as well from the "BMCC Fail Boat" (I say this jokingly) I couldn't wait any longer for it! So decided to just spend the extra money on a camera I would get in a reasonable amount of time that is proven and is alot more feature rich compaired to it.

+1 (New R1MX owner)

 

[Luca Orlandi]

At the link below, you can find some test shoots of red scarlet-x in Venice.

PAGE 1 - Frames: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...m-Venice-with-Scarlet-X&highlight=lucaorlandi

PAGE 2 - Video Sample: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...ce-with-Scarlet-X/page2&highlight=lucaorlandi

For me look like "cinema" but... maybe I'm wrong.

L.

The BMC sensor feels more like film and has better highlight rolloff than Scarlet. I like the images better, and they look more like cinema, whereas the Reds always look more like video to me. I just saw a Scarlet video on here, today, and the brights hitting a face looked like video, and not what I'm preferring.

Granted the Dragon sensor will probably turn the whole thing around, but it's not here yet, and it's quite out of my price range.

In the meantime, the BMC is the best bargain in the world today.

 

[Michel Rabe]

Plus isn't CinemaDNG's raw controls more akin to stills raw controls?

And who are we kidding, terabytes are pretty cheap these days

Editing Cinema DNG is a joke right now and Adobe currently is not willing to work anymore into it. Plus it's uncompressed. Terrybytes are getting cheaper, but they're not getting faster unless you go for SSDs. Maybe you don't have a workflow that involves lots of copying and backups, but right now, raw workflow with BMCC will be tough.

I too love the images I've seen from BMCC, despite others I think the sensor is absolutely capable of shallow enough DoF especially since there will be a MFT version and there are plenty very fast lenses around for that. Colors are beautiful! Missing AA filter seems to not be an issue most of the time.

But for raw workflow there's just no comparison to RED right now. Now if they'd manage to implement Cineform or similar of course...

 

[Eric Santiago]

In the meantime, the BMC is the best bargain in the world today.

Quite the bargain, if you add the angst and wait time most have ran into, Id say it cost some future users a bit.

 

[Björn Benckert]

This is a weird comparison...why would you? the cams have totally different looks. BMCC has a drastically smaller sensor that will give a very different look than Scarlet/Epic/F3/Alexa/Fs700/Fs100 with their s35(+) size sensor. Best to try to compare it to Pani's offerings and maybe the Digi Bolex.

I scratch my head as to why someone would replace a 5D kit with the BMCC, the BMCC will be better for a few things and very very worse for others. In fact since both camera bodies are so small why not carry them both, the 5D will give you beautiful wide FOV with lens focal lengths that have more pleasing characteristics! A 24mm lens on a Full Frame sensor can be breathtaking, I would take that over whatever lens it would take to squish that FOV onto the BMCC! 8mm? 6mm? yuck!

Not trying to offend...just confused by the thread topic.



-dane

Dane, I think "replacing one camera with another" for some might be selling a pickup truck and get a convertible... and to that you respond "why not keep both", well sometimes money is an issue. There is for sure many situations where a small sensor with more higher pixel density is better than a large one. For example if you shoot miniatures, then you want your sensor to scale with the scaling of your set, or for macro work where your dof might just get to shallow. Same for some wildlife and action sport shots where a short DOF is not practical and where you do not have the light to stop down enough. Also for really long lenses a smaller sensor might be more beneficial. Also the BMC sensor delivers shaper per pixel images (still with some moare issues) it has some advantages in certain situations and for wide video shots the 5D is not really optimal as it outputs HD and has far more moare issues with the line skipping, poor color depth etc.

Not saying that Large sensors are bad but there is still just as many situations where a small good sensor might be a better option.

 

[Lliam Worthington]

The BMCC, while there are sone limitations, is clearly an amazing and disruptive camera and a micro budget Indie dream come true. Love it.

But as to competition for the Scarlet... on a project by project basis, especially one where budget is your chief concern, possibly sure, but camera to camera? Scarlet X is also clearly a level above. And as a "system" has a lot of significant further benefits as well.

1) Better resolution. 4K motion
2) 5K stills.
3) HDRX
4) 48P 3K - Twice the frame rate of the BMCC at a still greater resolution than the BMCC is capable of.
5) 2K 60p
6) Sensor size
7) RED.... Black Magic is a great company, but in terms of infrastructure, customer services and brand, RED has come a loooong way in seven years and this is all now a big plus.
8) An upgrade path. Whatever form it takes, there will be one, and it's another huge consideration.
9) 4K enabled to best participate in REDs democratising RED ray/Crimson vision and partnership with Odemax, it's another great reason to be a member of the RED 4k family.
10) Better workflow/storage/REDcode/compression
11) Free firmware improvements to colour science, features and the like.
12) Accessory compatibility with a higher end camera making it easier and more cost effective for those wishing to move upwards to a more powerful system.
13) REDcine X - free
14) R3D native support, adoption and close support and tie ins with leaders such as Adobe.

There's more I'm sure. I think RED's design and modularity for example is vastly superior, but I appreciate this may be more subjective.

As to the BMCC being more "cinematic". Sure, if David Mullen or Don McAlpine is shooting with it. Probably.

Sorry it's just such a silly statement. Everyone keeps reiterating the same facts to the point where I think they must be insane and have alzheimer's, because SURELY every person with an interest in cinematography has read a thousand times and grasped that "cinematic" equals lighting, composition, lense selection, lighting, production design, lighting, location, lighting, colour grading, lighting, makeup, lighting... and camera. If you can't produce an image as cinematic as the BMCC with a scarlet. It's you. It's a 4K raw image from an S35 sensor. And everything that implies. Or should. Read some threads on here and watch when experienced REDusers take someone else's complaint about my poor image footage, and takes the same footage, and with only minutes of work turns into something stunning. It happens again, and again on here... because it can, because it's RAW.

Alright, sorry, end of rant. Peace love and mung beans, and good night from this tired little Aussie.

 

[M Most]

While I certainly don't disagree with your overall conclusion that Scarlet is worth the additional cost, there are a few points you might not want to stress to those who don't.

10) Better workflow/storage/REDcode/compression

The BM camera records RAW to an onboard SSD, just like Scarlet. Unlike Scarlet, you also have the choice of recording using either ProRes or DNxHD. Also unlike Scarlet, you can use the SSD in any standard SATA slot or dock, it doesn't require a proprietary card reader. And you have a choice of SSD's from various vendors.

(11) Free firmware improvements to colour science, features and the like.

There haven't been any "official" free firmware improvements on the BM camera because it hasn't been available for very long. But BM has long provided free upgrades on many other products, including DaVinci Resolve, and including major new releases of that product. There is no reason to believe they won't have a similar policy with this one.

(13) REDcine X - free

DaVinci Resolve (full version) - free. AND Blackmagic Ultrascope - free. Enough said.

(14) R3D native support, adoption and close support and tie ins with leaders such as Adobe.

Cinema DNG is an open format that was developed by, yes, Adobe. As such, it already has Adobe support and wider support is to be expected.

As I said, Scarlet is a superior product to the BM camera in a lot of ways. But if you're going to start making lists to impress others who don't feel that way, I would leave the above referenced "advantages" off that list.

 

[Michel Rabe]

Cinema DNG is an open format that was developed by, yes, Adobe. As such, it already has Adobe support and wider support is to be expected.

As far as I remember, they recently announced that they officially end their participation in Cinema DNG development.

 

[Chris Gurtlinger]

+1 (New R1MX owner)

Congratulations on your R1MX purchase. I was a little late jumping ship to get one before they were sold out of them, so I settled for a Scarlet-X instead!

 

[M Most]

As far as I remember, they recently announced that they officially end their participation in Cinema DNG development.

That has no bearing on their continued support of the format they developed, which they also announced. The Cinema DNG was always designed to be open sourced and that's essentially what they did. If anything, that move encourages even wider support than they could engender themselves.

 

[Abraham Lim]

Congratulations on your R1MX purchase. I was a little late jumping ship to get one before they were sold out of them, so I settled for a Scarlet-X instead!

"Settled"? haha, yeah same to you on your lady friend. I'm glad we both can start shooting now instead of waiting in limbo for "weekly" updates. I still go back to the BM forum, hoping to see those guys get some good news. On Friday comes the update that was due 5 weeks or so ago.

 

[Michel Rabe]

That has no bearing on their continued support of the format they developed, which they also announced. The Cinema DNG was always designed to be open sourced and that's essentially what they did. If anything, that move encourages even wider support than they could engender themselves.

almost no work and progress on it the past years, I hope you're right but I'm not that positive about Cinema DNG's future.

 

[M Most]

almost no work and progress on it the past years, I hope you're right but I'm not that positive about Cinema DNG's future.

It's a wrapper for RAW data with lots of other space for metadata. It's resolution independent. What kind of "work and progress" would you want to see? There's been virtually no "work and progress" on DPX for almost 20 years, and it still works very well and is in fact the most widely used frame-per-file format in the industry, especially for DI work.

Sometimes things are, for all practical purposes, complete and finished.

 

[Vladimir Druts]

I'm 100% going to get a BMC as a B-cam for my scarlet..