RED Scarlet (MX) Upgrade to RED Epic (MX)

[Mike Garrick]

Hah Sam ! , remember when you where angsting over your SD purchase or going somewhere else, we had a little discussion about that...Now it's my turn ; ) !

 

[sam karr]

The crop sensor on the Raven when compared to Super 35mm 4 perf is 1.21x... which means a Zeiss 15mm lens would give you an 18mm FOV. This is even a better ratio than the cropped sensor window mode on the dragon/weapon when shooting 4k which is 1.34x... making a 15mm zeiss a 20.1mm on Weapon/Dragon.

I don't understand. Raven use a dragon sensor. Size of the pixel: 0,005 microns. 4K is 4096x2160. Raven is using exactly the same area as 4k on dragon/weapon cameras. Why would there be a different ratio? There is no difference between raven 4k and dragon/weapon 4K.

 

[Hector M. Sanchez Jr]

The crop sensor on the Raven when compared to Super 35mm 4 perf is 1.21x... which means a Zeiss 15mm lens would give you an 18mm FOV. This is even a better ratio than the cropped sensor window on the dragon/weapon when shooting 4k which is 1.34x... making a 15mm Zeiss a 20.1mm on Weapon/Dragon.

Yeah, from my understanding the Raven crop is no different then the crop on the RED Scarlet Dragon, EPIC Dragon, and Weapon Dragon. There shouldn't be a difference between them. Also the MX sensor has a smaller crop factor then the 4K Dragon. Based on RED Tools, the MX Sensor has a 1.73 crop factor at 4k, while the Dragon has a 1.87 Crop Factor at the same resolution.

 

[sam karr]

Yeah, from my understanding the Raven crop is no different then the crop on the RED Scarlet Dragon, EPIC Dragon, and Weapon Dragon. There shouldn't be a difference between them. Also the MX sensor has a smaller crop factor then the 4K Dragon. Based on RED Tools, the MX Sensor has a 1.73 crop factor at 4k, while the Dragon has a 1.87 Crop Factor at the same resolution.

Exactly. Because MX has bigger pixels. So the sensor is bigger @4K.

4096 x 0,0054 microns = 22,12mm on MX vs 4096 x 0,005 microns = 20,48mm on Raven/Dragon/Weapon.
As long as the cameras are using the same sensor technology there is no difference at all. All dragon cameras have the same crop factor for each resolution.

 

[Hector M. Sanchez Jr]

I guess my new question is, should I aim towards a Scarlet Dragon, or the RED Raven. This is a little frustrating, I literally got this Scarlet about a week before they started teasing the Raven. I still plan to shoot a lot with my Scarlet. It's going to be awhile before anyone can even get there hands on a Raven or any accessories for it, and I honestly wouldn't want to sell my Scarlet, and be camera-less for 5 months or more. Just trying to figure out the path, Scarlet MX ---> Scarlet Dragon, or Scarlet MX ---> RED Raven.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

I don't understand. Raven use a dragon sensor. Size of the pixel: 0,005 microns. 4K is 4096x2160. Raven is using exactly the same area as 4k on dragon/weapon cameras. Why would there be a different ratio? There is no difference between raven 4k and dragon/weapon 4K.

Yeah, from my understanding the Raven crop is no different then the crop on the RED Scarlet Dragon, EPIC Dragon, and Weapon Dragon. There shouldn't be a difference between them. Also the MX sensor has a smaller crop factor then the 4K Dragon. Based on RED Tools, the MX Sensor has a 1.73 crop factor at 4k, while the Dragon has a 1.87 Crop Factor at the same resolution.

You are correct my miscalculation was using the horizontal instead of diagonal when comparing Raven dimensions to Super 35mm (4 perf)... so you are correct in that the Raven has the same 1.34x crop factor at 4k.

 

[Jacobo Martinez]

I think the Raven is the way to go, superior in every way than the dragon scarlet but the resolution. Remember it also has half a stop more in the shadows than the scarlet.

 

[sam karr]

I think the Raven is the way to go, superior in every way than the dragon scarlet but the resolution. Remember it also has have a stop more in the shadows than the scarlet.

Funny statements.
"Superior in every way than the dragon scarlet but the resolution" .... but the different mounts, but the different OLPFs, but the bigger FOV, but the shallower DOF, but the 6k for stills.
Scarlet Dragon is not dead, it will be upgraded. It's a more professional camera whatever you're claiming. You will not notice any difference between 4k 3:1 and 5:1. But you will notice a huge difference between 4k and 5k. The question is, if David Fincher or one of his talented friends had a choice to make between a Raven or a Scarlet Dragon, he would probably choose the Scarlet to shoot his movie.
Of course if you often shoot some 120fps Raven is your tool. But if 24-60fps is enough for you the scarlet is a superior camera.

And it's half a stop more in the shadows.

 

[Hector M. Sanchez Jr]

Funny statements.
"Superior in every way than the dragon scarlet but the resolution" .... but the different mounts, but the different OLPFs, but the bigger FOV, but the shallower DOF, but the 6k for stills.
Scarlet Dragon is not dead, it will be upgraded. It's a more professional camera whatever you're claiming. You will not notice any difference between 4k 3:1 and 5:1. But you will notice a huge difference between 4k and 5k. The question is, if David Fincher or one of his talented friends had a choice to make between a Raven or a Scarlet Dragon, he would probably choose the Scarlet to shoot his movie.
Of course if you often shoot some 120fps Raven is your tool. But if 24-60fps is enough for you the scarlet is a superior camera.

And it's half a stop more in the shadows.

You had me at David Fincher ha ha. Ill probably just aim for the Scarlet Dragon. Sell my Scarlet MX brain in a few months, and pay the difference for the Scarlet Dragon Brain.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

You had me at David Fincher ha ha. Ill probably just aim for the Scarlet Dragon. Sell my Scarlet MX brain in a few months, and pay the difference for the Scarlet Dragon Brain.

The problem with this... is that a newer version of the Scarlet could be announced in the next few months... RED needs that missing link for the newer DSMC2 bodies. I have a feeling it will definitely be here by NAB at least.

 

[Hector M. Sanchez Jr]

The problem with this... is that a newer version of the Scarlet could be announced in the next few months... RED needs that missing link for the newer DSMC2 bodies. I have a feeling it will definitely be here by NAB at least.

I kinda feel the Raven is the Weapon equivalent of the Scarlet. I was assuming RED was going to contune there camera pattern. Originally there was just the EPIC, and the SCARLET was the low end, and now with the DSMC2 family, the weapon would be the high end, and the raven the low end.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

I kinda feel the Raven is the Weapon equivalent of the Scarlet. I was assuming RED was going to contune there camera pattern. Originally there was just the EPIC, and the SCARLET was the low end, and now with the DSMC2 family, the weapon would be the high end, and the raven the low end.

Yeah but Jarred... said there would be a path for the Scarlet.

Epic has a path forward into the new form factor, Scarlet will see a path forward to the new form factor, then there will be a new sensor in a few years, and then a few years after that the cycle repeats all over again.

 

[Hector M. Sanchez Jr]

Yeah but Jarred... said there would be a path for the Scarlet.

Interesting, wonder how they are going to go about do this.

 

[Hector M. Sanchez Jr]

Im just going to stick with my RED Scarlet MX for now. Its still a great camera, and I'm still getting work with it. I would like to upgrade to the Dragon, but its going to be awhile before I can do anything. The Raven wont be available for months, and its still up in the air how the Scarlet is going to get upgraded. I do agree the Scarlet Dragon as a better investment then the Raven. More options and in my opinion, way better specs, High Frame Rate isn't everything. If I see a opportunity to get a scarlet dragon, I will most likely take it.

 

[Anthony Berenato Jr]

I have a feeling there's still something right in the middle that hasn't been shown yet. Jarred made it a point to talk about Weapon like it's the upgrade for the guys "who need the best" and Raven is definitely an amazing product for the "entry level," but with the talk that there's still a "yet to be" upgrade path for Scarlet Dragon... I'd assume we haven't heard the last yet. Good, Better, Best.

 

[Hector M. Sanchez Jr]

I have a feeling there's still something right in the middle that hasn't been shown yet. Jarred made it a point to talk about Weapon like it's the upgrade for the guys "who need the best" and Raven is definitely an amazing product for the "entry level," but with the talk that there's still a "yet to be" upgrade path for Scarlet Dragon... I'd assume we haven't heard the last yet. Good, Better, Best.

Yeah, I completely agree. Chances are it will be a Weapon version of the Scarlet. Probably be a scaled down version of the Weapon. Something along the lines of 6K stills (Low FPS), and maybe if we are lucking 120 FPS at 5k, but lets be honest. It's going to cost way beyond the Epic X upgrade. If the Weapon Brain is around $60,000. I'm assuming the Scarlet Weapon will be around half of that. I'll even low ball it, if the Weapon Scarlet is $20,000 for just the brain alone, I still think doing the Scarlet X to Epic MX upgrade is a better investment for myself. For $9500, I get 5K at 120fps - 150fps at Full Frame, and I get to transfer all of my accessories, and module upgrades for free. Yeah I wont get the extra dynamic range that the Dragon sensor brings or the automatic black shading from the DSMC2 body, but me personally, I don't see it being worth that price tag.

The Epic X has shot some amazing looking films, commercials, and music videos. Its a very mature camera, and over the past 5+ years, the MX sensor has been refined, and polished. I still think the MX has some life left in it. Just my opinion.

 

[sam karr]

Yeah, I completely agree. Chances are it will be a Weapon version of the Scarlet. Probably be a scaled down version of the Weapon. Something along the lines of 6K stills (Low FPS), and maybe if we are lucking 120 FPS at 5k, but lets be honest. It's going to cost way beyond the Epic X upgrade. If the Weapon Brain is around $60,000. I'm assuming the Scarlet Weapon will be around half of that. I'll even low ball it, if the Weapon Scarlet is $20,000 for just the brain alone, I still think doing the Scarlet X to Epic MX upgrade is a better investment for myself. For $9500, I get 5K at 120fps - 150fps at Full Frame, and I get to transfer all of my accessories, and module upgrades for free. Yeah I wont get the extra dynamic range that the Dragon sensor brings or the automatic black shading from the DSMC2 body, but me personally, I don't see it being worth that price tag.

The Epic X has shot some amazing looking films, commercials, and music videos. Its a very mature camera, and over the past 5+ years, the MX sensor has been refined, and polished. I still think the MX has some life left in it. Just my opinion.

The Weapon is 34500$, not 60000. I don't see the scarlet-weapon being at a different price than it is now (scarlet dragon). Red is capable of doing a Raven Weapon brain for 6000$.

 

[Grant Smucker]

This is very frustrating! My biggest beef with RED is that when they launch new cameras, they don't discount the old. You still pay the full price, even though the life of that camera is going to be very short in relation to specs of new cameras coming out. I don't know why they are still selling MX cameras if you can't upgrade them, and the resale value is next to nothing. This is obsolescence.

I guess my new question is, should I aim towards a Scarlet Dragon, or the RED Raven. This is a little frustrating, I literally got this Scarlet about a week before they started teasing the Raven. I still plan to shoot a lot with my Scarlet. It's going to be awhile before anyone can even get there hands on a Raven or any accessories for it, and I honestly wouldn't want to sell my Scarlet, and be camera-less for 5 months or more. Just trying to figure out the path, Scarlet MX ---> Scarlet Dragon, or Scarlet MX ---> RED Raven.

 

[Hector M. Sanchez Jr]

The Weapon is 34500$, not 60000. I don't see the scarlet-weapon being at a different price than it is now (scarlet dragon). Red is capable of doing a Raven Weapon brain for 6000$.

It's only $34,500 if your upgrading your current Dragon cameras. The sale price for the Weapon with out a upgrade is $49,500 / $59,500 depending on which carbon fiber version you pick. For people like myself who are still on the MX sensor, upgrading is not a option. So even if I decided to wait for the Weapon Scarlet, I wouldn't get the upgrade price, or anything in my price range. Thats why I think spending $9,500 on getting a Epic isn't bad.

 

[sam karr]

It's only $34,500 if your upgrading your current Dragon cameras. The sale price for the Weapon with out a upgrade is $49,500 / $59,500 depending on which carbon fiber version you pick. For people like myself who are still on the MX sensor, upgrading is not a option. So even if I decided to wait for the Weapon Scarlet, I wouldn't get the upgrade price, or anything in my price range. Thats why I think spending $9,500 on getting a Epic isn't bad.

I was talking about the magnesium weapon.
http://www.red.com/store/products/weapon-magnesium-upgrade-package-deposit