RED S35 or Panasonic AF100

[Bruce Allen]

This also doesn't include some of the other neat ideas RED has implemented - touch focus tracking/pulling, timelapse mode, 120fps 3K mode, and whole idea of modularity. I have to throw away that whole AF-100 when they release the AF-200 even though it will most likely use virtually identical audio, storage, and power components.

You don't have to throw it away. You can sell it used, as a full working package. Might retain more value than an obsoleted RED sensor module.

For example, I have 3 HV20s - I am probably going to donate one to a charity in Cambodia, one is going to be lent to a film student friend and one is going to sit around just in case.

Also...
1. it's 28mb/s AVCHD not 18mb/s AVCHD for the AF100
2. how do you get $9000-$11000 for Scarlet S35? You go over that if you want to add the XLR input module mentioned on that table. Also, a lot of people *need* an EVF.

That said, I imagine both RED and Panasonic will offer a kit discount of some kind.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Jim Retar]

The Panasonic records at 28 MB/s .... if you are going put time into such things... at least get the (proposed) details right.

 

[David Rasberry]

You don't have to throw it away. You can sell it used, as a full working package. Might retain more value than an obsoleted RED sensor module.

For example, I have 3 HV20s - I am probably going to donate one to a charity in Cambodia, one is going to be lent to a film student friend and one is going to sit around just in case.

Also...
1. it's 28mb/s AVCHD not 18mb/s AVCHD for the AF100
2. how do you get $9000-$11000 for Scarlet S35? You go over that if you want to add the XLR input module mentioned on that table. Also, a lot of people *need* an EVF.

That said, I imagine both RED and Panasonic will offer a kit discount of some kind.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

So far my estimated budget for a practical 2/3" Scarlet Cinema package, including lenses, is running more than $10k. I would expect an S35 kit decently outfitted will run closer to $20k.

 

[Michael Olsen]

Definitely forgot to update the price when adjusting between 2/3 and S35. My sincere apologies for that.

As for 28MB/s recording...I still haven't been able to find this spec posted officially. Is there a link? Or is it just reasoned from the "highest AVCHD" statement?

You don't have to throw it away. You can sell it used, as a full working package. Might retain more value than an obsoleted RED sensor module.

Indeed. I realized what I had written after posting. I was a bit distracted at the time - last time that should happen, I hope.

 

[John Caballero]

Originally Posted by Wim Scheyltjens
That's what the AF100 is basically, a $6000! GH1 in a different body.

LOL! Some people have no clue.

 

[David Rasberry]

LOL! Some people have no clue.

If they get rid of the stock GH1 fud, AF100 will be a decent prosumer HD camcorder with more flexible DOF than the small chip cameras. Other than that it's a pretty standard package for the price class.

 

[Graham Foulkes]

AF 100 is probably better than GH! for synch in camera audio and record time, ND filters but thats about it........

 

[Bruce Allen]

As for 28MB/s recording...I still haven't been able to find this spec posted officially. Is there a link? Or is it just reasoned from the "highest AVCHD" statement?

Actually it's 24Mb/s - I got confused with the other Panasonic consumer TM700 cam that does 28Mb/s Note those are megabits not bytes.

Oh darn it, just saw you took the time to update your table to my erroneous 28mb/s spec.

How do they say it? No good deed goes without punishment? Sorry!

Here's the press release which mentions "PH mode" - 24Mb/s:
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wc...0101919040&surfModel=Content04082010101919040

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Michael Olsen]

Actually it's 24Mb/s - I got confused with the other Panasonic consumer TM700 cam that does 28Mb/s Note those are megabits not bytes.

Oh darn it, just saw you took the time to update your table to my erroneous 28mb/s spec.

How do they say it? No good deed goes without punishment? Sorry!

Here's the press release which mentions "PH mode" - 24Mb/s:
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wc...0101919040&surfModel=Content04082010101919040

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Beginning to drift off topic...but doesn't (or can't?) AVCHD expand to 28MB when at 1080p60 using Level 4.2?

 

[Bruce Allen]

AF 100 is probably better than GH! for synch in camera audio and record time, ND filters but thats about it........

To quote Jan Crittenden from her NAB interview video on DSLRs: "they're great still video cameras but very bad video cameras"... (and the AF100 will produce an image) "without aliasing and other bad joo-joo" (her words)
So I presume that (unlike the GH1), they are:
- optimizing the OLPF for HD video resolution instead of stills.
- improving their pixel binning or whatever the hell downscaling technique they use to get HD images off that GH1 sensor

Hence video performance will be better than GH1. I'm sure they're aware of the GH13 hack too - it'd be pretty bad if the AVCHD-compressed footage from the AF100 were beaten by a hacked GH1! Also, it has HD-SDI and HDMI out (GH1 has no ability to monitor full res, right?).

Beginning to drift off topic...but doesn't (or can't?) AVCHD expand to 28MB when at 1080p60 using Level 4.2?

Yes it does. Trick is: Pansonic's consumer cams can do 1080p60 at 28Mb/s, but the AF100 (and Panasonic's pro cams) can't do 60p at 1080! The AF100 does 24p at 1080p at 24Mb/s.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[John Caballero]

AF100 will be a decent prosumer HD camcorder with more flexible DOF than the small chip cameras.

Ain't that the idea behind the AF100? Because OTHER THAN THAT it would be a pretty standard package for the price class!

 

[Wim Scheyltjens]

Re:

Re:

To John,

"That's what the AF100 is basically, a $6000! GH1 in a different body."

Not a well thought through statement, I admit.


Like others have written, it still looks to be kind of basic compared to

what RED has promised and hopefully will deliver with Scarlet.

Now with FLUT, Redraw, and probably an amazing lens, I 'll just wait a bit longer.

 

[Jim Retar]

It is "basic" compared to RED because it is substantially cheaper to any other RED large sensor offerings.

There is not one RED offering that includes an EVF for $6000... and anything that comes close has its own set of compromises. Be it, a fixed lens, a 2/3" sensor, lack of XLRs, no EVF etc etc

At the $6000 price point, expect compromises from Panasonic and RED. (the plus point for RED is you can add items on as your earn more money).

If $6000 is roughly your budget... it is then up to you to determine what you can live with/without.

I think we need to wait and see before calling the AF-100 basic though... if, in their pursuit of create a jello/aliasing/moire free image, they some how master a way to downscale 1080p from 12mpx.... then this camera will be far from "basic".

 

[David Rasberry]

It is "basic" compared to RED because it is substantially cheaper to any other RED large sensor offerings.

There is not one RED offering that includes an EVF for $6000... and anything that comes close has its own set of compromises. Be it, a fixed lens, a 2/3" sensor, lack of XLRs, no EVF etc etc

At the $6000 price point, expect compromises from Panasonic and RED. (the plus point for RED is you can add items on as your earn more money).

If $6000 is roughly your budget... it is then up to you to determine what you can live with/without.

I think we need to wait and see before calling the AF-100 basic though... if, in their pursuit of create a jello/aliasing/moire free image, they some how master a way to downscale 1080p from 12mpx.... then this camera will be far from "basic".

For its target price I think it will be a stellar addition to the market mix. Much to like about it.
I truly expected Panny to be the first to do this when the GH1 was released. They have a strong history and interest in the low end indie film maker market. DVX and HVX models have pretty much been the go to choices there for many, including a lot of schools.
Practical cine style lenses, especially zooms, are the major issue with this format at the moment. One pretty much has to move to 35mm glass for that. Practical compact run and gun zooms: constant speed, broad range, and fast, don't exist. So it is better suited for styles of production that lean to primes. It will be interesting to see what Panasonic comes up with in the way of zooms to support this camera. But a true high quality fast cine style zoom similar to what will be offered on the Scarlet fixed will be a large and heavy beast compared to 2/3" optics.
This camera is more of a competitor all around to the 2/3" Scarlet, and I think the Scarlet will hold its own once people see its capabilities. The practical difference in DOF range is not that great.

 

[John Caballero]

To John,

"That's what the AF100 is basically, a $6000! GH1 in a different body."

That is why I know that is going to be a fantastic camera! The GH1 now with the hack is just a glimpse of the improvements in image quality and performance the AF100 is going to bring to the table. It comes from the professional side of Panasonic and you know they are putting their reputation on the line. The AF100 is going to be a glorious GH1 on a big professional body. With all the bells and whistles of a pro camera.

 

[chrislancaster]

That is why I know that is going to be a fantastic camera! The GH1 now with the hack is just a glimpse of the improvements in image quality and performance the AF100 is going to bring to the table. It comes from the professional side of Panasonic and you know they are putting their reputation on the line. The AF100 is going to be a glorious GH1 on a big professional body. With all the bells and whistles of a pro camera.

so basically what youre saying is gh1 is nothing like the af100 other than it has the same sensor ..?

 

[John Caballero]

so basically what youre saying is gh1 is nothing like the af100 other than it has the same sensor ..?

But of course it isn't. The AF100 comes from the pro video division and of course is going to be a much better camera. Better codec, better audio, better ergonomics, better sensor performance. That has been stated and is obvious.

 

[WILLIAM SPENCE]

Does anyone else find it strange that the AF100 supposedly has a 12MP sensor but will only offer 1080p? Supposedly the camera is not supposed to do any line skipping or pixel binning, so if they have enough power on board to downscale and compress to AVCHD at 1080p, why aren't they offering some sort of less compressed 2K or 3K? Why would you have such a large sensor and deliver such a small resolution? 2K or 3K might make the camera compete a little better... just saying.

 

[chrislancaster]

Does anyone else find it strange that the AF100 supposedly has a 12MP sensor but will only offer 1080p? Supposedly the camera is not supposed to do any line skipping or pixel binning, so if they have enough power on board to downscale and compress to AVCHD at 1080p, why aren't they offering some sort of less compressed 2K or 3K? Why would you have such a large sensor and deliver such a small resolution? 2K or 3K might make the camera compete a little better... just saying.

heat problems ? storage problems? they dont care to spend the R&D money when 1080 is good enough right now.

just my guess

How about an aja ki pro would that would allow you to save as a better codec or higher resolution ?

 

[WILLIAM SPENCE]

Heat and storage are both good arguements. But in that case, if 1080p is "good enough", then I would think that they could get by with a 4-5MP chip and offer better frame rates, or use fewer but larger pixels and get better DR, or simply make the camera less expensive. Either way, I still think 12MP is a bit of overkill if you are only going to offer 1080p.