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RED S35 or Panasonic AF100

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Nelson Alexandre

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Sorry if this seems to be a stupid comparison for all you RED fans but I'm REALLY a newbie regarding RED cameras.

A year ago I was planning to buy a Scarlet 2/3 but it was been delayed since, and there's this new contender in town by Panasonic which is really getting things hotter.

I know that everybody raves about the "not so good" AVCCAM codec and the 4:2:0 color sampling which seems to be a major drawback against RED cameras, but if you don't mind, can you RED experts give me some advice on:

- I see so many extras for the "S35 Brain Only" camera that I really don't understand how much do I have to spend (besides the brain and the optics), if I'm only searching for a film camera with good audio INs and preferably TC IN/Out options (I assume a Marshal monitor will do just fine and will be much cheaper than RED's 7" option).

- If both cameras are about the same price (7k+accessories??? for RED vs 6K for Pana), which one you will really choose and why? (no sentimental answers here please).

- Anyone really knows if this S35 Scarlet will hit the market in the next months, or is it probably going to happen the same thing that's happening with the 2/3 Scarlet?

Every bit of help's really appreciated. Thanks in advance.
 
Nelson Alexandre said:
Sorry if this seems to be a stupid comparison for all you RED fans but I'm REALLY a newbie regarding RED cameras.

A year ago I was planning to buy a Scarlet 2/3 but it was been delayed since, and there's this new contender in town by Panasonic which is really getting things hotter.

I know that everybody raves about the "not so good" AVCCAM codec and the 4:2:0 color sampling which seems to be a major drawback against RED cameras, but if you don't mind, can you RED experts give me some advice on:

- I see so many extras for the "S35 Brain Only" camera that I really don't understand how much do I have to spend (besides the brain and the optics), if I'm only searching for a film camera with good audio INs and preferably TC IN/Out options (I assume a Marshal monitor will do just fine and will be much cheaper than RED's 7" option).

- If both cameras are about the same price (7k+accessories??? for RED vs 6K for Pana), which one you will really choose and why? (no sentimental answers here please).

- Anyone really knows if this S35 Scarlet will hit the market in the next months, or is it probably going to happen the same thing that's happening with the 2/3 Scarlet?

Every bit of help's really appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...


I would buy RED thats why I am here.

My Reasons:

Redcode
modular system - easy upgrades ..etc..
looks
3k
customer incentive programs ..
customer service


no one knows when scarlet will be released ..its been said many times
 
Nelson Alexandre said:
- If both cameras are about the same price (7k+accessories??? for RED vs 6K for Pana), which one you will really choose and why? (no sentimental answers here please).
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If they were the same price, I'd choose the S35 Scarlet, no question. Likely much better image quality, higher fps options, etc.

Thing is: a similarly-equipped S35 Scarlet seems to cost more like $12,000 - eg double the price IMHO. Unless someone wants to make an EVF that doesn't cost $3000? Also, it could likely weigh more, so you're looking at a more expensive tripod, etc.

My guess is that that RED may offer some kind of bundle deal on the accessories?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
If they were the same price, I'd choose the S35 Scarlet, no question. Likely much better image quality, higher fps options, etc.

Thing is: a similarly-equipped S35 Scarlet seems to cost more like $12,000 - eg double the price IMHO. Unless someone wants to make an EVF that doesn't cost $3000? Also, it could likely weigh more, so you're looking at a more expensive tripod, etc.

My guess is that that RED may offer some kind of bundle deal on the accessories?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
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i think the Epic weighs only 5-6 lbs. so scarlet wont weigh anything especially with a mini prime on it .

Red will also release a touch focus monitor with epic/scarlet ..i dont think it will be 3000
 
Bruce Allen said:
If they were the same price, I'd choose the S35 Scarlet, no question. Likely much better image quality, higher fps options, etc.

Thing is: a similarly-equipped S35 Scarlet seems to cost more like $12,000 - eg double the price IMHO. Unless someone wants to make an EVF that doesn't cost $3000?
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Is RED EVF really necessary? I was planing to use an external 7" viewfinder alone, like the ones of Marshal and Small HD
 
And S35 is not going to be the first Scarlet out, so timing may be a consideration for you as well.

Personally, I think shooting REDCode RAW is a HUGE reason to go with any Scarlet. There are a large number of reason to favor Scarlet, but everyone has to assess their own needs, do their own homework, and decide for themselves.
 
1080 60i

1080 60i

The Panasonic can only do 1080 60i, I really don't understand how people can compare, Scarlet 120 at 3k! I see no competition with RED Scarlet until somebody can a least produce a 1080 60p camera.
 
Carlbattreall said:
The Panasonic can only do 1080 60i, I really don't understand how people can compare, Scarlet 120 at 3k! I see no competition with RED Scarlet until somebody can a least produce a 1080 60p camera.
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Well, the 2/3rds sensor is smaller. It just might lose in Low-light performance to the AF100. Plus those who love shallow focus will have problems.

BTW, actually there are cheap true 1080p 60p cameras already out - eg Panasonic TM700 for $750. It has three 1/4" CMOS sensors - so actually larger surface area than Scarlet 2/3rds, plus a f1.5 - f2.8 lens... they compress down to 28mbps though.

But you can see why RED are playing their cards close to their chest now - eg what if Panasonic bothered to make a pro version of that camera, with less compression and sync for stereo 3D... or heaven knows, maybe even RAW?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
I doubt the 2/3" Scarlet will give up much in sensitivity if anything to any of the cheaper DSLR's . Sensor size is just one of many factors in that equation.
People are saying the GH1 has a practical rating around ISO 400. I expect Scarlet to easily match or exceed that. AF100 will probably be similar, but it is an unknown too.
It also depends on what you put on the 4/3 for a lens. If its the typical f4-f5.6 kit zoom or similar, you will have neither sensitivity nor DOF advantage over the 2/3".
A 3 chip camera's sensitivity can't be compared base on combined surface area either. Most of the small 3-chip cameras seem to fall in the ISO 100-200 range unless you are willing to put up with significant noise from gain.
 
David Rasberry said:
I doubt the 2/3" Scarlet will give up much in sensitivity if anything to any of the cheaper DSLR's . Sensor size is just one of many factors in that equation.
People are saying the GH1 has a practical rating around ISO 400. I expect Scarlet to easily match or exceed that. AF100 will probably be similar, but it is an unknown too.
It also depends on what you put on the 4/3 for a lens. If its the typical f4-f5.6 kit zoom or similar, you will have neither sensitivity nor DOF advantage over the 2/3".
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Sorry, but I don't understand why I would want to use a f4-f5.6 kit zoom and not one of the numerous sub-f2.0 options (eg faster than Scarlet 2/3rds kit lens)? To handicap the AF100? As a Red fan, it is tempting, I know :P

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
Sorry, but I don't understand why I would want to use a f4-f5.6 kit zoom and not one of the numerous sub-f2.0 options (eg faster than Scarlet 2/3rds kit lens)? To handicap the AF100? As a Red fan, it is tempting, I know :P

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...

I'm planning on a Scarlet Cinema model with a selection of used 16mm lenses. Mostly a couple of zooms.
 
Someone made the math some time ago that the most basic working Scarlet S35 kit would run about 8,500 dollars.

So I still think it's competitive with the AF-100 (rumored at 6,000), not to mention vastly, vastly superior.

If RED manages to manufacture the basic and most common modules in large quantities, perhaps they can put out a S35 Starter's Kit for about 8K.

I think they should make the S35 as competitively priced as they can, so people who are really serious about their video but can't get an EPIC can skip DSLRs and future cameras such as the AF-100.

The masses have tasted shallow DOF, and a lot of them won't look back.
 
The Panasonic can only do 1080 60i, I really don't understand how people can compare, Scarlet 120 at 3k! I see no competition with RED Scarlet until somebody can a least produce a 1080 60p camera.
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No, the only problem is that by the time the AF100 hits the streets Scarlet won't even exist! When we see Scarlet 120 at 3K we might be able to cheer. Otherwise is not even a close call. We have been waiting for years and we might have to wait for a few more. In the meantime the AF100 looks like the best deal in the horizon. No doubt about it.

BTW: The AF100 will do 1080p24 Native as well as many other flavors.
 
Daniel Valle said:
Someone made the math some time ago that the most basic working Scarlet S35 kit would run about 8,500 dollars.
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This is news to me. I would love to know how this is possible.

Here's a basic config:

Scarlet S35 Brain - $7000
2.8” LCD - $900
REDMOTE - $550
Side CF Module - $500
Battery Module - $1200 (this could be cheaper if using a RED Volt and travel charger were an option - but I have a feeling the battery would be over in no time - this is a 5K S35 RAW camera)

So, that is about $10,000 without lenses, once you account for CF cards, accessories, etc. One might also consider I/O Module as a basic requirement. Not sure I would want to use anything less than high quality glass for 5K. Add a basic RED Pro 17-55 and we are up to $16k. Could be nearly double the price of an AF100, considering the lens is far more critical for the Scarlet. Still, a great deal, considering how much superior it is to an AF100 in every way.

The real question, though, is AF100 vs. Scarlet 2/3". A basic Scarlet 2/3" Cinema will set you back roughly $5000. Scarlet 2/3" Fixed at $4750 including the lens is of course irresistible.
 
It's all down to timing, for me. I don't see the s35 out before summer 2011. I don't even see any Scarlet out this year, regardless of what was announced the other day.

If the AF-100 has a very highly resolved 1080p, good DR etc, then I will get one and a nanoflash to record uncompressed 4:2:2

IF, the fixed is out, I will get that and wait patiently for the s35.
 
AF 100

AF 100

As far as I'm concerned, the AF100 would just be a total waste of money. Just buy the next $2000 dollar canon, nikon or sony dslr with a better codec, if DOF, or lack thereof is what you want and you’re on a tight budget, or shoot the great GH1 with the latest firmware hack (50 Mbit 1080p btw)

That's what the AF100 is basically, a $6000! GH1 in a different body. Panasonic is just one of several old business dinosaurs trying to maintain profits by introducing slow incremental changes to it's product line, so they won’t eat into their higher end product sales, like the HPX "Varicam" 3700, only shooting 1080, 30p for about $50k! Or the Sony pdw 750 and pdw 800 and the Cinealta line. These companies just don't get it. Their business models are slowly being pushed out. They had and still have no benefit from rapid technological changes and innovation, that’s why we see these products come to market.

But as long as people are willing to spend their cash on an AF100 or sony equivalent, it's just business as usual for them. Consumers now have the power to force, drive innovation by spending wisely, sending a clear signal to Sony and Panasonic for REAL innovation and products that are good from the moment they are introduced, not 3,4 years later, hvx, hpx, 100a, 100b and so on and so on. Sony are just as bad. These companies think about their quaterly figures and stockholdersd FIRST!

This is what a company like Red has changed for me, trying to make obsolescence obsolete, Letting their technology trickle down into their product line, not holding back and trying to make their products the best possible from the start, really LISTENING to their customers and acting on their advice. Just look at the specs of the Red Scarlet line, the codec, framerates, features, …

As for the 2/3” vs 4/3” or full frame debate, for me shallow depth of field is good for controlled shooting, narrative work, but for most documentaries I prefer 2/3”, it’s just like 16mm. When you’re operating the camera, pulling focus and improvising to what’s happening around you, trying to follow what’s being said, a little more depth of field makes it easier for me to concentrate on what’s happening and react appropriately and creatively, rather than letting the technical side of the camera get in the way. I find that the film utimately benefits from this. It can be done, shooting documentaries in full frame, but sometimes it makes things too complicated and hampers creativity.


Spend wisely ;)


Cheers,

Wim.
 
Daniel Valle said:
The masses have tasted shallow DOF, and a lot of them won't look back.
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Shallow DOF is currently a big fad due to the novelty of being available in cheap video cameras for the first time. At some point it will return to its place as just another tool in the box and people will make camera decisions on a more practical balance of factors for their overall needs. For some uses 35mm DOF, especially FF35mm DOF, can be as much a nuisance as a benefit.
 
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