RED Rocket update...

[Shane Betts]

As long as Apple is going to continue essentially giving away Color for free, it is unlikely that anyone is going to consider putting a sophisticated competitor on the Mac platform. In fact, my feeling is that the only reason Adobe is able to compete on the Mac is because Apple doesn't really have anything to seriously compete with Photoshop (or After Effects, much as they keep trying with Motion). Apple users in general feel Apple can do very little wrong, and that goes with software as well as hardware. With that mindset, most of them would much rather see Apple "fix" color - for free -than spend even 10 cents on a competitor's product.

That's my view, anyway.

Hmm, yes and no. Certainly Apple have some mysterious ability to affect the thinking of its users to always blame something else and not Apple that has always astounded me. And certainly there will always be those who will stick faithfully to whatever comes with a piece of fruit on the box but... Microsoft sell a lot of copies of Office for the Mac, a lot of people buy Lightroom over Aperture, After Effects over Motion (go figure:001_tongue Media Composer over FCP etc. etc.

My point here is not necessarily confined to the Mac world. It's just that the traditional film/broadcast industry thinking goes like this. "There is only a small number of people who will ever want to spring the ($100k, $150k, $250k, whatever) for a high end (NLE, camera, grading application, whatever) so we have to charge ($100k, $150k, $250k, whatever) to recoup our R&D costs over such a small number of units sold". But then someone (Apple, Red, BMD, AJA, Adobe, whatever) come along and say, "But what if we released a product that sells for 10% of the industry standard prices, sell it in a retail channel that avoids all the lunch meetings and on-site call-outs? If we then sold ten times as many units we'd be in the same place". And guess what, history has shown us that they won't sell 10 times as many units, they'll sell 1,000 times as many units. I mean, how many cameras has Arri, Sony, Panasonic sold in the two or so years since the Red One began shipping?

Now you and I know that, for every 1,000 units they sell, 990 of them will go to somebody with neither the knowledge, experience or talent to produce anything meaningful. However, that last ten will produce something quite often amazing.

As an old-fogey editor I have seen, since the advent of FCP, my work dry up as young guys who've grown up on FCP, take my gigs and I get pissed when I get the call at the end of the job to come clean up their technical mess. But I must admit that, creatively, these guys rock and are doing stuff that, if I'm really honest, I would never have been able to deliver with all my years of experience and technical knowledge. So, aside from the clearly superior business model adopted by Jim, Steve, et al, I really believe that the industry ultimately benefits - even if old buggers like me suffer in the change.

 

[Shane Betts]

And whether Apple users see fit to spend more for that card (the Rocket) than they did for the computer it's running on.

Well, we have. And so, it seems, have a lot of other Mac users on this forum. And that's with no knowledge of what it will actually deliver. Mac users, in case you haven't noticed, have deep pockets:smile:

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

As an old-fogey editor I have seen, since the advent of FCP, my work dry up as young guys who've grown up on FCP, take my gigs and I get pissed when I get the call at the end of the job to come clean up their technical mess. But I must admit that, creatively, these guys rock and are doing stuff that, if I'm really honest, I would never have been able to deliver with all my years of experience and technical knowledge. So, aside from the clearly superior business model adopted by Jim, Steve, et al, I really believe that the industry ultimately benefits - even if old buggers like me suffer in the change.

And we so very fucking need more "old buggers" like you. Gentlemen like you and Mike with the humility to accept gold nuggets of any kind when/if they are before you, yet at the same time posses the character and wisdom to understand where the lines lie. People with the maturity to see how we need you, how you make us better, how we feed you, and how you make us able to feed ourselves things other than Ramen Noodles.

Times change, but talent will never goes out of style.

 

[M Most]

My point here is not necessarily confined to the Mac world. ..I mean, how many cameras has Arri, Sony, Panasonic sold in the two or so years since the Red One began shipping?...Now you and I know that, for every 1,000 units they sell, 990 of them will go to somebody with neither the knowledge, experience or talent to produce anything meaningful. However, that last ten will produce something quite often amazing...

Except that we ARE talking about the Mac world. The question being asked was why nobody seems to be offering a high end color correction system on the Mac platform at any price. This has little to do with the talent, both old and young, in the industry or the world. It has a lot to do with the fact that recent history has generally shown that there is no real way to compete with Apple on their own platform when they already have a competitive product to the one you're developing. Especially when they're giving theirs away. Your marketing approach might work if it concerned a product Apple didn't already have an entry in. It would most likely not even come close to working for something that would essentially be a competitor to Color.

 

[jonnycom]

Mike, thats about to change. There is high end color correction system coming that blows away color. I will try to post a video demo of it this week.

 

[Nils Ruinet]

Mike, thats about to change. There is high end color correction system coming that blows away color. I will try to post a video demo of it this week.

Well, every existing high end color correction system already blows Color away...:smilewinkgrin:

Or did you mean a "cheap" high end color correction system ?
In which case this sounds very interesting...
What's the name, and which company makes it ?

 

[Shane Betts]

The question being asked was why nobody seems to be offering a high end color correction system on the Mac platform at any price.

Ah, that wasn't a question asked by me Mike. As usual, I was banging on about low price alternatives. To give you a handle on my slant, I used to work at Blackmagic Design. Same old same old for me. Just take it as read that I'm on about that. Low cost, high functioning, don't care too much about platform. That's my bag right there.

I see no point whatsoever in a high priced grading solution on the Mac. Not because of Color but because, the price of entry to the current players makes buying a new box in which to run it a non-issue. That only becomes an issue when the app costs less than a machine.

Now, I'm not a colourist so I could well be wrong - and I certainly bow to your greater expertise here, but you wouldn't include Speedgrade as a high-end grading solution? Either way, you get no argument from me that Apple need to pull their finger out and sort out SDI outputs and the Quicktime gamma issues - I mean that's been about 7 years now. Stupid. My analogy still holds true. If someone were to release a grading app for around US$1k, cross platform, they'd sells heaps of them and a whole wave of incredibly clever, creative new colourists would be spawned - and an even bigger wave of idiots with no idea:conehead:

 

[Shane Betts]

And we so very fucking need more "old buggers" like you. Gentlemen like you and Mike with the humility to accept gold nuggets of any kind when/if they are before you, yet at the same time posses the character and wisdom to understand where the lines lie. People with the maturity to see how we need you, how you make us better, how we feed you, and how you make us able to feed ourselves things other than Ramen Noodles.

Times change, but talent will never goes out of style.

Thanks Robert but I'm not sure I deserve that. I'm busy trying to reinvent myself selfishly.:biggrin5:

Still, look at what happened in print design with the death of layup artists with knives and gum Arabic (they didn't die that way, they used to work that way... Oh, you get what I mean). All the old timers said desktop publishing was the end of the world as they knew it - and they were right. A lot of clients doing their own work producing absolute crap but the new wave of wunderkinds came through, working on pirated copies of Adobe and Quark v1.xx on SE30 Macs and the standard of graphic design has never been higher.

 

[M Most]

...you wouldn't include Speedgrade as a high-end grading solution?

I would. I did forget about that. However, it is also true that the vast majority of Speedgrade licenses are on the PC platform, both Windows and Linux - in part because of the NVidia SDI support, but also because of bang for the buck. Iridas is an interesting case, because what motivated them to go cross platform was really the demand for FrameCycler by artists working on Macs. Once they ported their libraries, it was much simpler for them to move all of their applications into the cross platform world. But the result of that is that many Mac users that I've talked to complain about Iridas' interfaces not being "Mac enough."

My analogy still holds true. If someone were to release a grading app for around US$1k, cross platform, they'd sells heaps of them and a whole wave of incredibly clever, creative new colourists would be spawned - and an even bigger wave of idiots with no idea:conehead:

While that may have some validity, it also needs to be a sound business decision. One of the problems that comes with volume is support, especially when you're dealing with a lot of non-professional users of sophisticated software. Professionals need and expect a high degree of hand holding because they need 24/7 operational reliability - and, in general, they're willing to pay for that. But justifying that kind of price point on a product that requires a good deal of R&D investment and continued development efforts to remain vital means that there must be some kind of sustaining financial support for those efforts. I haven't run any projections, but that in itself is a rather hard nut to crack.

And I still think you're overestimating the number of potential customers. But that's just my opinion, and it's no more or less correct than yours.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

...especially when you're dealing with a lot of non-professional users of sophisticated software....
And I still think you're overestimating the number of potential customers. But that's just my opinion, and it's no more or less correct than yours.

combustion is 999 USD and also very sophisticated.

but agree on the second part of your statement

 

[M Most]

combustion is 999 USD and also very sophisticated.

1. Combustion is not a grading application, it is a compositing application.
2. Autodesk is one of the largest software companies in the world. As such, it can afford to provide support for a product like Combustion for a number of reasons: very few non-professionals use it, it has a number of other products at various price points that provide a sustaining support income, and it serves as a sort of introductory product for those seeking to move up to their system products, such as Flame. Personally, I am somewhat surprised that they have continued to support it on the Mac, as it's their only product on that platform. Of course, it's also an evolution of a product they purchased which already had cross platform versions, so development of platform specific code was limited, and it originally sold for over $3000.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

1. Combustion is not a grading application, it is a compositing application.
2. Autodesk is one of the largest software companies in the world. As such, it can afford to provide support for a product like Combustion for a number of reasons: very few non-professionals use it, it has a number of other products at various price points that provide a sustaining support income, and it serves as a sort of introductory product for those seeking to move up to their system products, such as Flame. Personally, I am somewhat surprised that they have continued to support it on the Mac, as it's their only product on that platform. Of course, it's also an evolution of a product they purchased which already had cross platform versions, so development of platform specific code was limited, and it originally sold for over $3000.

1. compositing is not easier than grading.
2. pretty clever move form autodesk imho.

 

[Shane Betts]

While that may have some validity, it also needs to be a sound business decision. One of the problems that comes with volume is support, especially when you're dealing with a lot of non-professional users of sophisticated software. Professionals need and expect a high degree of hand holding because they need 24/7 operational reliability - and, in general, they're willing to pay for that. But justifying that kind of price point on a product that requires a good deal of R&D investment and continued development efforts to remain vital means that there must be some kind of sustaining financial support for those efforts. I haven't run any projections, but that in itself is a rather hard nut to crack.

And I still think you're overestimating the number of potential customers. But that's just my opinion, and it's no more or less correct than yours.

Exactly Avid's point of view 10 years ago when a Media Composer require a house-sized mortgage. There's more than one way to skin a cat and, yes, we're as right as each other.:closedeyes:

In the meantime, I received a phone call yesterday (Sunday my time) from Fedex asking for the import duties on our two RED Rocket™s. Add those to FCS3, the new Red tools and I guess we throw everything we've learned so far out the window and start to assess the whole workflow anew. Gonna be an interesting couple of weeks.

 

[MichaelP]

Are you saying that RED ROCKET works within FCP? There was no mention of support for RED ROCKET in the FC3 release notes. It will be interesting to see what RED ROCKET will provide, but as of now, I don't know if anyone knows for sure other than those within RED. The card is out in customer's hands, but the SDK for it is not (yet). So we will have to wait and see what comes from it.

Michael

 

[Simon Blackledge]

Maya?
Toxic?

Their Autodesk n mac...

 

[jimhare]

No, not yet... But Color now supports 4K R3Ds which is a great first step.

Red Rocket and Red Alert or the upcoming Rocket CineX is where the grading power is at the moment.

Are you saying that RED Rocket™ works within FCP? There was no mention of support for RED Rocket™ in the FC3 release notes. It will be interesting to see what RED Rocket™ will provide, but as of now, I don't know if anyone knows for sure other than those within RED. The card is out in customer's hands, but the SDK for it is not (yet). So we will have to wait and see what comes from it.

Michael

 

[Shane Betts]

Are you saying that RED Rocket™™ works within FCP? Michael

No, not as far as I'm aware, but we're hopeful the RED Rocket™ will change the transcoding game enough to warrant a new look at that workflow - plus Color. It's going to be a gradual shift I think, as the SDK reaches the developers and the developers roll out support. Despite the misgivings of some out there, I don't see anyone ignoring the RED Rocket. As soon as they do that, and their competitors embrace it, the speed differential will be a massive PR hit.

 

[tony gardiner]

Hi all
Quick question, we just received our red rocket down here in Sydney Aus, now I am gathering that you need rocket cine-x to use the card however we do not have a copy nor can we find one anywhere on the site.
We are pretty anxious to test it! any ideas or info would be greatly appreciated!
cheers

Tony Gardiner
Sydney Aus

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Hi all
Quick question, we just received our RED Rocket™ down here in Sydney Aus, now I am gathering that you need rocket cine-x to use the card however we do not have a copy nor can we find one anywhere on the site.
We are pretty anxious to test it! any ideas or info would be greatly appreciated!
cheers

Tony Gardiner
Sydney Aus

patience my young apprentice. I think its obvious they are working until their eyes bleed... meantime red rocket driver install software is on their site

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

This thread is picking up speed. Was an actual ETA for the new SDK release mentioned?

Vegas already released a new version of Vegas 9 with a lot of work put into it. It has been very little time since it's initial release. They always release at least a few updates so I am very hopeful for a version taking advantage of Red Rocket by the end of the year.

About FCP update schedules however I don't know enough. Would you guys say it is safe to assume that we would see one by the end of the year with a hypothetical July - August SDK release? Or is that not a normal FCP update timeline?