RED refunds and fine print....

[Michael Brennan]

Is the below clause from RED an unusual sales clause for US manufacturers?

Also if a RED owner is unhappy about the stability of the camera in respect to bugs and software recording glitches, is there a returns clause to cover this?
Lets say you wait for build 16, buy the camera but six months later it still has faults.
Will RED refund your bread?

As I see it and please correct me if I'm wrong, with no gaurantee that the camera will deliver any particular specification where does this leave the buyer in the legal sense if their is a differenc of opinion between what is and isnt industry standard or whatever other method of establishing is the camera is "fit for purpose"?



Mike Brennan
UK



"10. INDEMNIFICATION – Buyer shall indemnify, defend, and hold Red and Red’s officers, agents and other representatives harmless from all demands, claims, actions, causes of actions, proceedings, suits, assessments, losses, damages, liabilities, settlements, judgments, fines, penalties, interest, costs and expenses incurred (including fees and disbursements of legal counsel) of every kind (i) based upon personal injury or death or injury to property to the extent any of the foregoing is proximately caused by defective product..."

 

[Dexter Gregoire]

What I have found after just receiving my camera is that it requires alot of discipline, organization and a whole lot more things to make a movie on Low/No budget. I could have used the money from purchasing RED in different ways, like to paydown my mortgage, but instead I need to fullfill my dream. There are so many choices in life. I can choose to stick with a 9-5 job till I'm 65 and retire and enjoy life that way. To each his own.

One of my biggest fears is to grow old, sit in a rocking chair and realize that I could have but didn't. I'm not that old yet.

There is one thing I realized and that is--- Without faith, nothing is possible.

I didn't read the fine print like you did. I looked at the images that were posted by the +100 people who posted. I read what the well respected individuals who used the camera had to say and I weighted their opinions. I learned from the people who posted on REDUSER.net about workflow, camera settings, etc...

And I came to the conclusion, If they can do it, I can too. Just do like they do! It only requires a little bit of faith.

 

[Noah Kadner]

Yeah I think if you're sifting through the fine print for the exact percentage of performance you expect out of a piece of gear you're probably in the wrong business. Maybe get a sports car instead- costs about the same...

Noah

 

[Michael Brennan]

Yeah I think if you're sifting through the fine print for the exact percentage of performance you expect out of a piece of gear you're probably in the wrong business. Maybe get a sports car instead- costs about the same...

Noah

You are jumping to conclusions!

To suggest that I'm in the wrong business because I want to check out a camera guarantee is absurd!
I first started operating electronic cameras for a living in 1981 and have been freelance since 1983.

I'm primarily in business to pay the mortgage then have fun rather than the other way around.
Both can be severely dampened by not knowing where liability lies if something goes wrong or can't be fixed.
Given REDs development history this is not an outrageous concept to contemplate for the next 18 months or so...

I ask the question based on a terrible experience with Sony where the camera (f900) had ongoing issues in 2003 where I eventually couldn't use the camera for fun or business.(couldn't even cross hire it as others like me thought it wasn't reliable)

That's why I've ordered two REDs but am still very interested in the return policy as per original question.

Re your last comment, which I find impertinent, I sold my sports car, a lovely Bristol Beaufighter to help finance my HD kit!


Mike Brennan

 

[Michael Brennan]

There is one thing I realized and that is--- Without faith, nothing is possible...

And I came to the conclusion, If they can do it, I can too. Just do like they do! It only requires a little bit of faith.

Well I hope you will be rocking with RED into your 70's
I too have had "faith" in new technology a new way of doing things.

For example I was first to use minicams in UK, first to import Stanton crane into UK first freelancer in Europe to buy a f900.

I have less faith in RED than any of the above, but thats just me.

So have faith, take a gamble, but doesn't mean that you can't also be aware of watching your contracts or gaurantees, especially if some of your work involves other people spending money on what is in front of your camera.


Mike Brennan

 

[Vladimir Eugene]

Hi Mike,

I ordered and received one of the first hundred cameras. My camera had a small kink. It was resolved quickly. I was content. After I read and experienced the cold issue, and saw they were going to make the future cameras better in the sense of cold/heat and other things lens mount for one- I was a bit disappointed- I felt that had I just waited a bit I could of picked up one of the improved cameras.

To my surprise RED offered to replace all of our cameras- the original first 100 for free. I realized they are loyal to their customers.

If you have a problem with one or both of your RED cams you have on order, I'm sure tech support will be more than happy to help.

If you send them a legal notice, notify that you know your rights, I'm guessing they will point you towards that sentence you brought up.

my 2 cents

Vladimir Eugene

 

[Marc Berger]

"All Red ONE camera bodies are redeemable for a full $17,500 credit toward EPIC..."
For me a very expanded kind of guarantee.
Cheers
Marc

 

[Joel Kaye]

"10. INDEMNIFICATION – Buyer shall indemnify, defend, and hold Red and Red’s officers, agents and other representatives harmless from all demands, claims, actions, causes of actions, proceedings, suits, assessments, losses, damages, liabilities, settlements, judgments, fines, penalties, interest, costs and expenses incurred (including fees and disbursements of legal counsel) of every kind (i) based upon personal injury or death or injury to property to the extent any of the foregoing is proximately caused by defective product..."

Probably typical, but the reality is that if a defective RED killed somebody RED would get sued and probably be held liable. There are a lot of clauses in contracts that aren't enforceable. Consult your legal representative.

 

[donatello b]

from what i recall ... once you receive your Red you have X days ( 10 maybe 15??) days to return it for a full refund ( with no more then X hrs on it) ...after that i beleive there's a 30% restocking fee ....
so i would have to say 6 months is not going ot get a full refund ..
some of the return within X days could vary depending on the problems you're having ...Red has all this info on the web site ...

seems that as far as 10. INDEMNIFICATION .. that is why you buy production insurance ...
if you rent out your camera/equipment you would include something like #10 in your rental agreement to protect your ASSets ...

 

[Finner]

Jim and others would never call me a faboy. That said, I can attest that everything I have seen or heard about reds customer service is that it is by far the best in the industry bar none.

Although there are some things I have concern of for the camera, service and commitment to customers by red is definately not one of them.

 

[Steve Sanacore]

I would expect a company like RED to go miles further to help resolve a problem than companies like Sony or Panasonic. The risk is there with any product from any company or any size. If you are too nervous about issues of being stuck with a lemon, then just rent cameras when you need them.

 

[Michael Brennan]

I hope I hope I hope

I hope I hope I hope

from what i recall ... once you receive your Red you have X days ( 10 maybe 15??) days to return it for a full refund ( with no more then X hrs on it) ...after that i beleive there's a 30% restocking fee ....
so i would have to say 6 months is not going ot get a full refund ..
some of the return within X days could vary depending on the problems you're having ...Red has all this info on the web site ...

seems that as far as 10. INDEMNIFICATION .. that is why you buy production insurance ...
if you rent out your camera/equipment you would include something like #10 in your rental agreement to protect your ASSets ...

Answering the last part first I doubt if many REDusers have production insurance for casual projects and self shooting. RED Terms makes the user responsible if the hand grip fails and camera falls from a height and injures someone. It is a bizarre clause that I have yet to see from a camera manufacturer, maybe it exists with other camera manufacturers but is hidden?

Anyway the more important part of the thread is the refund issue! if the camera does not come up to a, yet to be determined, level of reliability.
The question of refund is pertinent for those buying now, hoping that the camera will deliver a certain amount of reliability that is not present at the time of purchase but is hoped for further down the track lets say 11 months.

If REDone or RED software is still flakey in a years time will RED refund the camera?

What is a minor bug for some can be a major bug for someone else and 15 days exchange from delivery is OK to test for some but not for others.

I didn't read the 30% restocking fee as a no quibble return policy within 12 months, if this is so this would be very good because this lessens the risk.


In respect to the reference to a trade in on Epic it would probably not be an option of interest to a REDuser disenchanted with reliability of REDone

The comforting news is that we have yet to hear of any bad experiences regarding this subject, but the early adopters have been well looked after by Jim and very forgiving to boot.



Mike Brennan

 

[Michael Brennan]

I would expect a company like RED to go miles further to help resolve a problem than companies like Sony or Panasonic. The risk is there with any product from any company or any size. If you are too nervous about issues of being stuck with a lemon, then just rent cameras when you need them.

Sure RED is more responsive but it hasnt proven reliability.

I want to buy a RED and also expect at least the level of reliability of a Sony or Arri that is out of beta.

The advice of "rent it instead" ignores the question.


Mike Brennan

 

[Ed Blythe]

"10. INDEMNIFICATION – Buyer shall indemnify, defend, and hold Red and Red’s officers, agents and other representatives harmless from all demands, claims, actions, causes of actions, proceedings, suits, assessments, losses, damages, liabilities, settlements, judgments, fines, penalties, interest, costs and expenses incurred (including fees and disbursements of legal counsel) of every kind (i) based upon personal injury or death or injury to property to the extent any of the foregoing is proximately caused by defective product..."

I cannot speak to the refund or customer service questions.

I can speak to the contract clause. You will find an indemnification clause of this type in almost any contract ever drafted, in any jurisdiction, in relation to any legal relationship or arrangement, at any time in the last 100+ years. It protects them from actions brought by third parties (i.e. they sue you and join Red to the action for whatever reason (in reality, because Red has more money than you)) as well as actions brought by buyers/you.

Lawyers put it in there to give their client (usually the one with the superior bargaining power*) a blanket defense against legal action of any nature.:devil:

Courts usually interpret such clauses quite narrowly depending on the circumstances of the case/claim. Ultimately, people/companies/legal entities are responsible for their actions - and anecdotally at least Red seem to take more responsibility up front than most.



*"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude." You want it? Play ball.

 

[Jeremy Newmark]

Yeah I think if you're sifting through the fine print for the exact percentage of performance you expect out of a piece of gear you're probably in the wrong business. Maybe get a sports car instead- costs about the same...

Noah

Mike Brennan is a well respected DoP within the industry. When it comes to digital cinematography, he is very knowledgeable and very experienced. We've rented his F900 package a handful of times over the last 5 years to supplement our own and I'll I can say is he's always been very helpful and he knows what he's doing. Mike is definitely not in the wrong business.

 

[Michael Brennan]

Lemmings form a line

Lemmings form a line

*"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude." You want it? Play ball.

Ed,
You don't take that "bad attitude" line seriously... do you? Surely its just a bit of fun!

Democratic filmmakers rejoiced when the "Sony tyrants" had serious competition, but you say we should "play ball" with RED.

Play ball or else.....what?


And thanks for the vote of confidence Jeremy!

Mike Brennan

 

[Ed Blythe]

Play ball ... or build your own?

I'm pretty sure I take it in the spirit it's intended, Mike. And I back it all the way...or else I wouldn't have a reservation.

 

[Anthony Gratl]

Sure RED is more responsive but it hasnt proven reliability.

I want to buy a RED and also expect at least the level of reliability of a Sony or Arri that is out of beta.

Not to join this pissing match for long, but there's a couple of things here. First, Arri and Sony are NOT in the same reliability club. Not by a long shot. Without getting into the various reasons why, suffice to say that Arri has had much more time to develop and work their imaging products than Sony has, and is also building a different kind of camera.
Second, you're expecting Red to 'prove' reliability with only 6 months in the field? People are expecting the world of this company, and they've promised a lot, but there are reasonable levels of expectation here, and you're way past those. For 25 grand, you're getting a hell of a lot more camera than Sony or Arri can give you at the same price point. So you're going to have to, at some point, TRUST that the camera will work in the long term. Not my favorite position to be in either, and I rarely gamble, but I'm willing to give it a go with this company.
my 2 c

 

[Michael Brennan]

Not to join this pissing match for long, but there's a couple of things here. First, Arri and Sony are NOT in the same reliability club. Not by a long shot. Without getting into the various reasons why, suffice to say that Arri has had much more time to develop and work their imaging products than Sony has, and is also building a different kind of camera.
Second, you're expecting Red to 'prove' reliability with only 6 months in the field? People are expecting the world of this company, and they've promised a lot, but there are reasonable levels of expectation here, and you're way past those. For 25 grand, you're getting a hell of a lot more camera than Sony or Arri can give you at the same price point. So you're going to have to, at some point, TRUST that the camera will work in the long term. Not my favourite position to be in either, and I rarely gamble, but I'm willing to give it a go with this company.
my 2 c

No I don't (and have never) expected RED to prove full reliability in six months, which is why a get out clause is prudent. Sure 90% of the bugs will have work arounds but some of the time they will be deal breakers for specific applications.


That Red is X price cheaper than other kit and has been under development for 24 months are not reasons to ignore some aspects of our consumer rights.


Spending $100k on a digital 35mm format setup isn't small beer.

Like most on this forum I've given 100% moral, creative and technical support for RED, but from my perspective the moral and commercial argument is that with 4200 cameras ordered RED doesn't need to be trusted that they will deliver a solid camera as much as I need the confidence in knowing if the kit doesn't deliver pro results I can get my money back.



There are enough business risks to encounter in 2008 without needing to wonder about consumer rights.

Full speed to RED, but commercially speaking seat belts save lives!




Mike Brennan

 

[Rick Darge]

Just an echo of a thought,

Red has been the best company I've ever had the chance of dealing with when it comes to customer care

We're all human and we all make mistakes.. Red turns these mistakes into gold. I could never get mad at them. They are too good to me..