Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Ray

Is the compression method a variant of Redcode RAW? Basically RAW in reverse? That is, Red creates an encoding application that would take RGB or even source R3D files and transcode them to Redcode RAW with heavier compression? The Red Ray player has Redcode RAW in silicon for decoding at any bitrate.
 
I'm guessing Red is using the following logic with Red Ray:

- At 10 Mbps using the most sophisticated DCT codec available (H.264), it is possible to produce acceptable 1920x1080p 4:2:0 8-bit video at 24 fps.

- Wavelets are 4x more efficient at creating lossless imagery than DCT

- Therefore, at 10 Mpbs, using the most sophisticated wavelet codec available, it should be possible to produce acceptable 4K 8-bit video at 24 fps.

- Depending on what colourspace they use (RAW, RBG, YCrCb) the chroma subsampling may be difficult to define.

I'm really not sure I buy into that math, but I'm curious to see how far wavelets can go. Personally, I'd have preferred if Red Ray used Blu Ray discs and exploited the higher bitrate available.
 
Also, we are kind of stuck with 8 bit displays today but what about tommorrow?
 
I don't know about you, but I was NOT looking forward to paying a ton for Blu Ray Authoring and then have problems so the big studios wouldn't lose from it.

Thank God for Red, who has come along, and done there WHOLE revolution.

The next thing for us to get will be our friends at Apple...with FCS3, be complete with the new compression, along with 4K interactive menus to complement the content.

My hands are kinda shaking as I type. :-)
 
Stuart English said:
Or you use an existing (hence low cost) media and work out the math so that the information you need to represent fits onto that media.

We were told we could not do that (4K REDCODE RAW to CF cards) :matrix: that is the logic again with RED-RAY (4K to DVD-9)
Click to expand...

Well you're sure as hell pissing off the Blu-Ray fanboys. On one of the home theater forums I'm on they are throwing rocks at me because they refuse to believe it's not possible because it didn't come from Sony and it isn't using their beloved Blu-Ray and AVC. Even the VC-1 team member from Microsoft is scratching his head about it. They all want to know EXACTLY what Red Ray is, what purpose it serves in relation to the camera, and how the hell you can compress as much 4K footage as you claim you can without having it look like crap.
 
visakk said:
We really don't know what exactly has happened between Sony and Jim.
Sony Pissed off at Jim once.
Jim ensuring that Sony gets it back every year :)
Click to expand...

Actually it was a bit more than once, from my recollection. The known biggies are:

1. refusing RED to show 4k on their projector @ IBC
2. Maybe having a hand in the closing out of the RED for the last James Bond
3. Running direct marketing campaigns towards known RED users, (this is business, but still funny, as far from all RED ONE buyers would consider an F23 anyway)
4. Advising that SONY distributed movies should NOT be shot with RED
5. General badmouthing on all fora and in all business/camera meetings I've been to.
Sorta.

And then there's all we really don't know... :)

G
 
gunleik said:
Actually it was a bit more than once, from my recollection. The known biggies are:

1. refusing RED to show 4k on their projector @ IBC
2. Maybe having a hand in the closing out of the RED for the last James Bond
3. Running direct marketing campaigns towards known RED users, (this is business, but still funny, as far from all RED ONE buyers would consider an F23 anyway)
4. Advising that SONY distributed movies should NOT be shot with RED
5. General badmouthing on all fora and in all business/camera meetings I've been to.
Sorta.

And then there's all we really don't know... :)

G
Click to expand...

source for drama baby
 
Lexicon said:
Well you're sure as hell pissing off the Blu-Ray fanboys. On one of the home theater forums I'm on they are throwing rocks at me because they refuse to believe it's not possible because it didn't come from Sony and it isn't using their beloved Blu-Ray and AVC. Even the VC-1 team member from Microsoft is scratching his head about it. They all want to know EXACTLY what Red Ray is, what purpose it serves in relation to the camera, and how the hell you can compress as much 4K footage as you claim you can without having it look like crap.
Click to expand...

Howdy Lex... they _DO_ seem to be in a bit of a snit over there, don't they?

-Steve
 
jeremyn said:
I've been doing digital video compression since pretty much it first existed and I'm really struggling with the idea that what they are claiming is at all possible.

I grilled a Red employee for about 10 minute about how 2+ hours of 4K simply can't fit onto a DVD 9 at any decent quality using any existing or upcoming compression technology. He swore it worked and handed me his card and said I would owe him a beer next year after he proved me wrong. Time will tell.

It now needs an interactive/menu layer. May I suggest HDi spec from HD-DVD, it's way easier to use than BDJ and basically equal in capabilities.
Click to expand...

If anyone would know, it would be Jeremy, his place does some serious programming on DVD/Blu-ray/HD-DVD.

I'm also having a hard time imagining DVD 9s holding 4k at 2 hours. If Blu-rays were used for 4k 2 hour movies and dvd 9s were used for 1080p 2 hour movies, I'd believe it in a heart beat, but I hope to be proved wrong on this.
 
Data Rates

Data Rates

If anyone would know, it would be Jeremy, his place does some serious programming on DVD/Blu-ray/HD-DVD.

I'm also having a hard time imagining DVD 9s holding 4k at 2 hours. If Blu-rays were used for 4k 2 hour movies and dvd 9s were used for 1080p 2 hour movies, I'd believe it in a heart beat, but I hope to be proved wrong on this.
Click to expand...

We fully respect expertise in current technologies, and also respect healthy skepticism about the compression claims we make for RED-RAY.

However current realities can change - as RED-ONE has demonstrated. And we are motivated by that challenge.
 
Stuart English said:
We fully respect expertise in current technologies, and also respect healthy skepticism about the compression claims we make for RED-RAY.

However current realities can change - as RED-ONE has demonstrated. And we are motivated by that challenge.
Click to expand...

I'm a believer:red_bandana:

Emmanuel
 
DorkmanScott said:
What about movies longer than 2 hours? What about special features?

It would be awesome (and hilarious) for this to supercede Blu-Ray, but I'm going to have to place myself in the "skeptical" camp until we see more.
Click to expand...

When the burners get cheap enough, I think that Blu-Ray media would be pretty good for REDRAY. If you can fit 2 hours on a DVD9, then you should be able to fit nine or ten hours on a dual layer BD-Rom.

I doubt the format would superceed Blu-ray movies though - there's still many consumers who don't even have an HD television... Although it would be great for future proofing, since it's supposed to be able to downscale to 1080p. So when you get a bigger, higher res TV, instead of replacing all your movies and your media player, you could just plug in more of the HDMI outputs.
 
Stuart English said:
We fully respect expertise in current technologies, and also respect healthy skepticism about the compression claims we make for RED-RAY.

However current realities can change - as RED-ONE has demonstrated. And we are motivated by that challenge.
Click to expand...

I'm a believer... Compression algorithms can take many different forms and wavelets and even fractal compression is the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_compression

I dabbled with fractal compression and encryption in the mid to late '90s. WikiPedia doesn't have the whole picture correct there. It's possible to create lossless fractal algorithms as well, compute times are often intensive to produce quality fractal representations though. So for delivery on RED RAY, we may be looking at some long render times (really long). But I'm also making a blind assumption here. I'm just pointing out that, given my own experiences, I see one possible avenue that RED may take.
 
I think the whole point of using standard DVD-9 is to simply revolutionize the industry. If they were to use BluRay, not only would they be using Sony technology, but there wouldn't be any significant reason for studios, much less the average Joe to be interested in it. I mean 1080p is just catching on, I'm pretty sure even less people give a rats ass about 4k. So to REALLY make REDray appealing, they go for a way CHEAPER media but with much HIGHER quality (4k vs 1080p) in order to get attention. Of course, they could exploit the technology of BluRay to their advantage from a technical standpoint, but then that would totally destroy the whole allure of it being revolutionary. Thats just the way I see it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top