Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Ray

I don't doubt that Red will figure out a brilliant compression scheme to make this a reality and they're already testing different techniques in Europe regarding burning to red laser media.

The thing I want to know though is some of the smaller stuff. What about dvd menus? Has it been discussed whether or not this is just some regular chip drive that plays a compression format, sort of like Divx players. You'll just burn the compressed file onto a disc and the Red Ray begins playing it? Or are we talking actually attempting to create a new type of optical market. Where you'll be able to create menus, chapters, etc?
 
I think we'll know the answer in time.
 
I regret I was unable to speak with Stuart English this NAB. However, I did speak with Graeme at some length about the RED RAY. As far as compression is concerned, Graeme alluded to "Something special" being at the heart of the system. He was also very understated about it, which led me to believe that it has already been worked out and the challenge now is hardware integration (my opinion). It says a lot that RED RAY held the coveted spot in the last case in the booth. I have no doubts about the system, Jim is not going to extend himself like that without being able to back it up.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
I'm a believer... Compression algorithms can take many different forms and wavelets and even fractal compression is the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_compression

So for delivery on RED RAY, we may be looking at some long render times (really long). But I'm also making a blind assumption here. I'm just pointing out that, given my own experiences, I see one possible avenue that RED may take.
Click to expand...

Regarding the "render times" (meaning compression encoding time) the word in the booth on Wednesday was that a Red Ray encode for a full feature is highly intensive, and would at the minimum likely be an overnight process, perhaps even two, for that initial data compress...

Of course, for those of you used to working with intensive VBR encoding, when you compare average SD/HD VBR times against RED's much larger pixel count, this reallly isn't that bigh of a surprise....
 
The current VC-1 and AVC encoders for offline (Blu-ray) are under 10x for encode time. They use distributed models. The more machines, the faster the encode.

The best time we have seen for VC-1, on $250k+ HP HW was 1.8x realtime. This was faster than the Sony realtime MPEG2 encoder, which is realtime per pass. They all use two pass systems for the initial encode.

4-5x is more common for VC-1. 8x is probably more common for AVC.
 
Much like a film projector is similar to a film camera, I have the sense that much of RED RAY's architecture could be based on the RED ONE's circuitry. Since they've already worked out high-speed writing of 4K data to CF from the imager using the RED RAW codec, why not simply (or not so simply) reverse the dataflow? RED RAW carries a great deal of information natively like metadata and high fps. But during playback of a finished, color-corrected film, much of the original RAW information could be discarded since having the editable flexibilty of RAW is no longer necessary, thus lowering the amount of data per frame to compress. Then instead of going from imager to debayer to disk or CF, you go from CF or DVD to distributed processing to output. The player also wouldn't need more than 24 or 30fps, so even though higher frame rates are possible with RED RAW, they would not be used during a playback function because playback is fixed at a standardized frame rate, saving more potential bandwidth.
 
I wonder how the public will take this piece of information when word gets out....I think positive...We do like choices you know...
 
I can see one way of squeezing down a 4K movie to fit onto a DVD-R but I would imagine you'd need an extremely powerful decoding chip.

This is one item I'm really looking forward to besides Scarlett.
 
for all of you concerned about render time check this thread and the link in it http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11916

they talk about realtime blu ray encoding and render time for video compression 10-20x faster than before. Nvidia claim that they ll work this year about improving everything concerning video processing/encoding
 
Rankio said:
I can see one way of squeezing down a 4K movie to fit onto a DVD-R but I would imagine you'd need an extremely powerful decoding chip.
Click to expand...

Actually not, as long as Red does it properly. The way current compression is done in encoders and decoders, the complexity of encoders is much more (as it has to find the optimal parameters for compression) but the decoder is reduced complexity (since given the "optimal" set of parameters, it just does some fixed operations). And Red Ray does not even have to deal with issues that plague current decoders such as packet loss (typically on the internet), packet delay, packet re-ordering etc. Therefore, its decompression should be very fast by a decoder.

Such design is not by accident, but by careful planning so that off-line encoding may be cumbersome, but decoding can be made as real-time as possible.
 
The timing seems impeccable: Apple still seem not to have jumped onboard with BluRay and Microsoft could come onboard with a lot less face-saving than having to wholeheartedly adopt Sony's format.
Where future-proofing might be applied is in thinking how multiple players could talk to each other so that longer times could be achieved or stereoscopic playback realised. Could you even increase the bit depth by use of multiple projectors locked to each other? Or maybe the optical drive becomes increasingly a legacy feature and the CF slot (which already is capable of holding in excess of a standard DL DVD and may surpass DL BD in time) becomes the removable media slot.
Still, 2 hours of 4k on a DL DVD. Should I start rendering now so that my movie's ready for when Red Ray launches?
 
It doesn't seem that hard to me. I mean, hard, yes, but not impossible. I can download sometimes 1K quicktimes here at 20MB for 30s, that although not free from artifacts look great (boat trip is a nice example). Basically, 400MB (0,4GB) for 100 minutes. Make it 16x the ammount of information, and that's 6,4 GB using nothing more than H264. Making something smarter that looks better and weights the same should be possible, even if it's not an easy task.

I was talking to a friend seeing that clip, how can a 20MB file on my computer look so incredible. And how late was video playback technology compared to digital deliveries...
 
Remember, Blu-Ray is not just a strict video or audio format. The benefit of Blu-ray on a larger scale is the volume of data storage, 25 or 50 gb. For those out there that need uncompressed storage Blu-Ray is much needed compared to DVD and 9 gb. Many places and people don't really use proper storage and back up technologies ,i.e. home users. Blu-ray in that light is a Godsend for storage. Sony just wrapped everything else into the format as well, they are after all a very vertically integrated company. Red laser technology (actual red lasers, not RedRay) is very mature at this point and with compression and quality hard wired chips in the player, this seems very possible.

Also don't forget, many of the media companies obviously don't want end users to have these advanced compression technologies and so they spoon feed us small increments at a time. The Red company really upset the industry by giving us camera capabilites that would of taken the other guys another ten years to incrementally spoon feed us. Looks they are poised to do that again with player technology.

looking forward to more info about RedRay.
 
One more thing, If Sony can take one part of their technology and populate thier whole product line, why can't Red. I think it is only logical to make a player based on the same compression that they use to capture, they did spend years working on this, maximize and leverage your hard work.:weight_lift:
 
Umm. Just wanted to go on record on this first post in the forum as saying that RED RAY will be the most important product RED has ever announced. More than the cameras. Really. Just wanted it on record for bragging rights.

That's all. Move along.
 
theatereleven said:
They just need to get with it because I already started my blu-ray movie collection! =)

Was so relieved that the new Beta vs. VHS war was finally over...now it looks like we've just begun. So is this going to in fact turn blu-ray into the "laser disc" of this era????
Click to expand...
Well, I think Blu-ray will be with us for a while, since all the studios are now releasing their movies on that format. I'm assuming RED hasn't made any arrangements with the studios to sell movies in Red-ray. Right? RIGHT??? :shiftyph34r:
 
I am ready for the studios to quit choosing what format...it needs to be the people's choice.

I know I am not the only one who feels that way, but MAN! C'mon
 
A Red Ray player for under $1K with HDMI and more consumer type output would fit the consumer market to compete with Blu Ray. But as mentioned, it is more than just a format - there is interactivity, Internet connectivity, DRM, etc, before studios use it as a content delivery mechanism. With the data rates mentioned, a download delivery method is certainly not out of the question.

DRM would also be needed for digital cinema applications, again not impossible, but all of this is more than the essence format.

I think for starters this is a great post production tool for dailies review, sequence review, pre-screenings, and with VTR slave type capabilities would be used on all mix stages as the picture reference.

All of it is possible, some require more or less work.


Michael
 
Joseph Hutson said:
I am ready for the studios to quit choosing what format...it needs to be the people's choice.

I know I am not the only one who feels that way, but MAN! C'mon
Click to expand...

I hear you, but honestly don't trust "the people" to do anything!!!

Just want a format to keep THE MOVIE COLLECTION!!!!!!!!!!! =)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top