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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Overcranking at 4K? any news?

AppliedVisual said:
I bet online 4K will be reality by the time my RED #1110 ships. I can online 3 streams of 1080p24 on my G5 quad right now. A 3GHz quad-core Mac Pro is about 20% faster overall (although it's hard to put a true number to it) and we're expecting 8-core Mac Pro systems around NAB (when Intel's new chipset should be shipping to better support the quad-core Xeons). My AMD X2 (2.4GHz dual-core, 3GB RAM) can handle 2 streams of DVCPROHD @ 100Mbps in real-time via Edius.

If I can't online at least one feed of REDCODE RGB 4K off of a decent RAID and a new workstation bought late this year, then I'll be rather disappointed.

In reality though, I think it still makes the most sense to shoot 4K, export to and edit in 2K, deliver to film and/or HD 1080p.
Click to expand...

To me, I'd rather just skip all the proxy stuff and edit online at 4K compressed. I like my projects being self contained. It's what I'm used to from DV and 720p. By next year 4K compressed online will be a breeze for any high-end editing machine.
 
Brook Willard said:
Also please note that 4K REDCODE RAW does NOT have the Super 35mm depth of field/field of view/etc. characteristics. When you shoot 4K REDCODE RAW you are using the 35mm sensor area, NOT the Super 35mm sensor area.
Click to expand...
Oh. Gotcha! So, when acquiring at 4K, I will be applying a multiplication factor of approximately x1.6 to the focal length of my 35mm Nikkor still lenses, right?
 
Nick Shaw said:
Ralph, if your end result is to be 1080p, you CAN shoot the Academy 35 sensor area, preserving 35mm DoF, at 60fps and record on-board at 1080p60 REDCODE RGB. You don't need to window the sensor for 60fps. If you window the sensor, you can record 120fps on-board, but only at 720p REDCODE RGB. You would need to up-scale this in post to cut into a 1080p programme, but I think I would look ok.
Click to expand...
Great! Thanks for your post! I think that clears things up for me now! I CAN acquire up to 60fps using the 4K sensor area using only an on-board RED-DRIVE, I just have to acquire at an in-camera, re-scaled, 1080p image in REDCODE RGB, right? And the downside to acquiring in REDCODE RGB is both the render time in REDCINE (to rescale and/or crop), and limited ability to manipulate the profile, right? ONLY if I want to preserve a REDCODE RAW image, do I need to window the sensor upon acquisition to attain frame rates greater than 30fps (using only the on-board storage).
 
Ralph Oshiro said:
Oh. Gotcha! So, when acquiring at 4K, I will be applying a multiplication factor of approximately x1.6 to the focal length of my 35mm Nikkor still lenses, right?
Click to expand...

No.

Still 35mm is different than Super 35mm is different than 35mm.

A 50mm lens is a 50mm lens is a 50mm lens.

If you're trying to calculate degrees of FOV, there is some conversion between the formats. The problem with conversions is that we're talking about *apparent* focal lengths, not actual focal lengths. Sure a 50mm on a 35mm motion picture camera may *appear* different than it does on a still 35mm camera... but the focal length of the lens is still the same. The whole conversion thing gets very convoluted very quickly.

The best way to do it? Just learn the way that a certain lens "feels" on different formats.

I'm in a SCRATCH bay right now and don't have access to Photoshop. If I'm inspired tonight, I'll put a little diagram together to explain the way all of this works.
 
Ralph Oshiro said:
Great! Thanks for your post! I think that clears things up for me now! I CAN acquire up to 60fps using the 4K sensor area using only an on-board RED-DRIVE, I just have to acquire at an in-camera, re-scaled, 1080p image in REDCODE RGB, right? And the downside to acquiring in REDCODE RGB is both the render time in REDCINE (to rescale and/or crop), and limited ability to manipulate the profile, right? ONLY if I want to preserve a REDCODE RAW image, do I need to window the sensor upon acquisition to attain frame rates greater than 30fps (using only the on-board storage).
Click to expand...

You've got it. The only part of your post that I doubt is the render time in REDCINE. To my knowledge we don't know any official render time information [or how it varies between formats].
 
Ralph Oshiro said:
Oh. Gotcha! So, when acquiring at 4K, I will be applying a multiplication factor of approximately x1.6 to the focal length of my 35mm Nikkor still lenses, right?
Click to expand...

Hi,

No, S35mm is 24mm wide v N35mm is 22.05mm wide. Not very different.

Stephen
 
Brook Willard said:
I take it N35mm is different than the generic "full frame" 35mm that I'm currently drawing up a diagram for?
Click to expand...

I assume by N35 he means the size of a Nikkon D-SLR. 22.05mm is pretty close to the width of RED Academy 35 (22.2mm) so looking at the FoV on a Nikkon D-SLR is a good approximation of what you'll see on RED. Isn't that basically what Evin is doing for his tests?
 
Brook Willard said:
I take it N35mm is different than the generic "full frame" 35mm that I'm currently drawing up a diagram for?
Click to expand...

Hi Brook,

Full frame is S35 (4 perf).

Acadamy 35 (N35) has space for the soundtrack, which is the same size of the 4k Red, which I guess most people will go with.

Stephen

Edit This link from Panivision (in inches) may help!
http://www.panavision.com/aspect_ratio.php
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi Brook,

Full frame is S35 (4 perf).

Acadamy 35 (N35) has space for the soundtrack, which is the same size of the 4k Red, which I guess most people will go with.

Stephen

Edit This link from Panivision (in inches) may help!
http://www.panavision.com/aspect_ratio.php
Click to expand...

Hmm.... quite familiar with motion picture formats. What of full-frame still 35mm? Think Canon EOS 5D or check out my little diagram. Still formats are where my knowledge dies off...

I'm going to re-make my diagram to cover all relevant formats [still 35mm formats, motion picture 35mm formats, SLR formats, RED formats].
 
Someone linked me to a diagram that DVXUSER member, Proteus, made and posted in another thread over at DVXUSER. That's what I based my x1.62 multiplier formula on. So, my 14mm f/2.8 Nikkor will photograph nearly the same as it does on my Nikon D70 at a 135-equivalent of a 22.7mm lens.

Proteus' RED Format Diagram Thread
 
Brook Willard said:
Nope. 2K@60p, 4K@30p onboard REDCODE RAW.
Click to expand...

I don't mine shooting in 2K since I have been shooting 24p HDCAM for film-out with excellent resolution. I believe 2K would suffice for most of my work.

What I really need from the RED camera is the ability to use 35mm cine optics for the often sought after Depth-of-Field look; be able to shoot off speeds (high speeds in particular), and finally, greater color depth for higher quality effects work.

Unfortunately, 2K is only available in the Windowed Down mode to utilize a portion of the imager at about the size of a 16mm film frame.

The problem with Windowed Down, if I understand correctly, is that I have to pay for and switch to 16mm lenses on set for similar Angle-of-Coverage of a full frame 4K image from the same distance to the subject. If I stayed with 35mm optics, it will be like shooting with a teleconverter and bsically forgo any super wide angle shots.

Equally importantly, I'll lose the depth-of-field effect of the "35mm full frame" look by shooting with smaller frame size.

I am hoping RED can somehow upgrade the camera in the future to shoot 2K FULL FRAME using some kind of "sub-sampling" technology (I hope I used the term correctly) instead of a "Windowed Down" 16mm frame size. I will probably shoot everything in "2K Full Frame" and be able to shoot 60fps any time I want if such MODE exists. I'll save the 4K mode for very important or special shots only so that I can save a lot more drive space and have a lighter post workload.

If you guys know a workaround to alleviate my pain, please shed some light. Appreciate it.
 
You have an option now that's pretty close to that, Shoot 1080p scaled from the full frame, then you can record 60fps onboard as REDCODE RGB at about the same data-rate at 4k REDCODE RAW.

Oh and you don't need to change to a 16mm lens as such if you shoot windowed, but yes it will have the telephoto effect, so you will need wider 35mm lenses to get the same FoV.
 
My personal acquisition recipe [revised]:

A. STANDARD 24fps PHOTOGRAPHY:

1. Acquire 4K REDCODE RAW at 24fps using Nikkor 35mm still lenses [which effect a x1.62 cropping factor], taking full advantage of 35mm cine-sized, depth-of-field characteristics, and record to the on-board RED-DRIVE. Rescale the 4K REDCODE RAW image in REDCINE down to 1080p, and crop to desired aspect ratio [e.g. 2.35:1].

B. HIGH-SPEED 60-120fps PHOTOGRAPHY:

OPTION 1: Acquire 4K REDCODE RGB, at up to 60fps, using Nikkor 35mm still lenses [which effect a x1.62 cropping factor], using the in-camera scaling to achieve a 2K image (while still taking full advantage of 35mm cine-sized, depth-of-field characterisitics, but limiting your post-processing options), and record to the on-board RED-DRIVE.

OPTION 2: Acquire 2K REDCODE RAW, using the windowed sensor area, at up to 60fps, using Nikkor 35mm still lenses [which now effects a x3.24 cropping factor in 2K], using the in-camera scaling to achieve a 1080p image (sacrificing your 35mm cine-sized depth-of-field characteristics, but still retaining all the benefits of RAW acquisition for later post-processing in REDCINE), and record to the on-board RED-DRIVE.

OPTION 3: Acquire 2K REDCODE RGB, using the windowed sensor area, at up to 120fps, using Nikkor 35mm still lenses [which again, now effects a x3.24 cropping factor in 2K], using the in-camera scaling to achieve a 720p image (sacrificing your 35mm cine-sized depth-of-field characteristics, and limiting your post-processing options), and record to the on-board RED-DRIVE. Rescale back up to 1080p in REDCINE.


I think I finally have this straight, right?
 
The framerates for onboard recording were published before the announcement that the Red-Drive had now become a mini-raid.

I was keeping my finger (I only have 1) crossed that now Red-Drive was indeed raided, it would mean more bandwith/faster speeds and hence more fps for the respective resolutions. As they say 'subject to change'.

This hasnt been announed anywhere; but as 2k 120fps is theoretically possible, then could a faster drive get up to speed?

I'd be intersted to know where the bottleneck occurs on the framerates, is it CPU processing or write/transfer rate?
 
Oh interesting. Does this "mini-RAID" thing effect the FPS at 4K at all or open up any opportunities for upping it? What is the bottleneck preventing 4KREDCODE RAW at 48fps from being recorded "onboard"? The hard-drive speed or the processor?
 
Bottleneck is currently the chips that are doing the compression. Compressing 4k down to a manageable size is not easy and requires some serious horse-power for 30fps. To get 60fps requires double the horse-power.....

Graeme
 
Back to the formats thing: I've sorted them all out and have nice high-resolution [and accurately scaled] representations in a PSD. Here's a tossed-together composite of them.

Because the forum has a 1024 pixel height limit, I can't put them all in order to help make the format size relationships clearer. I'll figure out a way to do that at some point and may post it in a FAQ.
 
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