Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED RAY - VTR style controls

Stuart English said:
A DVD player has no record function either, so the answer is - there will be a software based encoding application that complements the player.
Click to expand...

Apologies for pursuing this. What I'm asking is, where or how will the DVDs be recorded when using REDRAY for playback? My understanding was that it will be possible to playback a two hour movie in 4K, but I don't understand where or how the dual layered DVD gets recorded in the first place?

edit: never mind... I re-read your post and it is now clear. Sorry
 
My 2 cents

My 2 cents

I really think RS-422 VTR emulation is a must. Cost is marginal considering that you already have a good CPU/ASIC for the video stuff. You only need a connector, a few resistor on the board and two free I/O pin on the ASIC. Software library for this already exists and are mature. That will take care of the theater market.

Ethernet is also a very interesting feature. It could provide remote control via web client but eventually through SNMP and then it could be used in more complex environments like museums or external multimedia show where you need to project large images from a distance over big surfaces (like old building). But more important, to be used as a media server where you could upload stuff through FTP on a HD (internal or Firewire).

In fact I see two very different type of use for this:

1. Basic mode where there is an "operator" beside the machine that put the disc than play/stop. Kind of an iPod on steroids.

2. Unattended mode where media are feed either manually or remotely and it's remotely controlled by an automated device.

If cost is a factor, I wouldn't have a problem with two models:
-Basic player (<1K$)
-Pro (some $ more): automation options, internal HD (of course the casing might need a little expansion)

I beg you not get suck up the DRM delirium. It's totally counter-productive for you type of market because:

1. It take a _lot_ of resources of the programming side,
2. Cost a lot if you license existing schemes.
3. It's a real pain for the user
4. And even if you target the thing as a very wide mass market product, I sincerely doubt that studios will ever release a movie for this machine. I hardly see Sony release their movies to a concurrent technology that has a gizzilion more pixel than their format.

Oops, I almost forgot: a remote! Another one to loose between the couch cushions. But then you need to add a remote locator that can point in the direction of the lost remote with a laser pointer when you loose it. :bleh:
 
Just saw the RED RAY ports on the brochure, I didn't see any audio port.
Any idea guys???
 
A little bit OT:
I really don't have any idea about the audio world.
So this is my question:

How is the 5.1 surround sound works with this embedded audio?
Is there a hardware that will convert this embedded audio to 5.1 surround sound?
 
A couple of notes and thoughts:

- For audio being embedded in HDMI/HD-SDI, a lot of people use amplifiers to re-route the audio part away from the monitor path. With quad ports, I'm pretty sure there's no current amplifier at the consumer level that can pull audio from one specific port in this quad-streaming case even if they HAVE four of the relevant ports that can be synced as one source. It might be wise to include at least one optical/coaxial sound output for that application.

- DRM - please don't use it, or at the very least make it optional. Not only will it suck up resources, be a pain in the you-know-what, etc, but it will be broken so quickly it will end up being a complete waste of time. I'd prefer an unencrypted format so it won't be obsoleted or made unplayable in the future when support is shelved.

- Definitely have a remote as well as RS422 functionality.

- Make the outer case stackable with locking options (I do see a threaded hole on the two sides, maybe this is already planned). In line with the remote option, allow for remote/unit syncing in the case of multiple units.

HTH!

Paul
 
Instead of using HD-SDI, why not using 3G-SDI.
Its operate at 2.97 Gb/s, twice the clock HD-SDI and is designed to carry 2K DI images.

Blackmagic-design use this 3G-SDI in their workhub products.
It's only need 1 port to stream 2K images.
 
laguun said:
The posthouses even had *more* interest.
Their mayor concern, and i have to say, reservation, is that the HUGE mayority of all of them is basically in TC / VTR land. If they do 1080P/2K, HDCAM and HDCAM SR is pretty much the >90% workhorse here. For offline, its still mainly Digibeta. They all dont want to understand raw workflows yet, and many dont see the davantages but only the disadvantages (to slow, to incompatible, no hd-sdi in an hd-sdi infrastructure, no *direct* online on an avid/discreet, anotehr steps, yada yada, you know their points).

If redray works with a VTR control for them, it would be a *totally* well selling player for them. They would basically not use the raw advantages, but at once would integrate RED into their supported format lists.

Another example, there are *many* very very successful editors out there, who surpringsly work on vintage systems (lightworks, discreet edit, old pre-adrenaline avids to name a few). They have "their" systems, are working lightspeed fast with them and are often 50,60 years and have *no* interest in computers at all. Some of them had #1 in the boxoffice several times, and computer still are bizarre systems to them.

These people dont get REDs current workflow at all, as they only know offline and a VTR style. red ray with TC rs 422 control would be highly appealing to them as well, all of them which i got on the phone asked at once if redray is sony/panasonic protocol controlled.
Click to expand...


I agree completely!!! The established (and HIGHLY esteemed) post houses here are just not setup to handle P2/RED cards and always ask, "where does it end up" In other words, if we accept your nonlinear media cards, what do we master to? The answer is almost always DigiBeta for broadcast spots, so they ask why not just originate on a tape format? Freelance DP's do not generally have access to DigiBeta decks and like it or not, the professional post production industry for TV commercials is built around an SDI and LTC timecode workflow. Proprietary formats generally do not fly with this crowd, in the midwest USA. I am currently stuck shooting DVCProHD and HDV with 35mm adapters because of this and I know I am not alone. Everyone loves the RED image quality, but the workflow is not compatible with the way things are done. Your workflow is better for image quality, just not always practical in a world where universal compatibility is more important. Just speaking with one of the busiest camera rentals houses in the area, they said they don't know of anyone doing spots with the RED camera. If it were as simple as exporting from RED software to the Avid DNxHD codec to a hard drive, people would be doing it. But, as you may have heard, there is an issue with Quicktime's handling of the Gamma Tags that makes this process basically impossible. So, it all comes down to taking the SDI output from the Mac, going out to a DigiBeta deck, and then recapturing to the Avid Adrenaline. We all wish these projects could be edited in HD, of course, but not all post houses have HDcam decks.

A standalone player with HD-SDI and timecode would convert a lot of people in this area... Even at $5k or $10k, it would be a HOT item, I think..
 
Here is my 2 cents:

1. Add a gigabit ethernet port.. Lets Make this the next Gen Apple TV. Also a central computer could stream footage to it or remotely control when what footage plays for theater automation.

2. Add a 40 GB or bigger HD to it. This way you can load/store footage on it, and movie theaters could load all their ads on it for looped playback until movie time starts.

3. Have a Wifi remote instead of IR.
 
ZeissUser said:
A standalone player with HD-SDI and timecode would convert a lot of people in this area... Even at $5k or $10k, it would be a HOT item, I think..
Click to expand...

A rackmounted device
Front: CF slot(s), Shelf/tray for RedRaid, FW800 connector, USB connector.
Touchpanel display with settings.

Back: HDMI, HD-SDI, SDI downconvert, VTR control, Gigabit ethernet.

Software:
Apply .looks via web interface. Superimpose metadata.
Point to a folder containing r3d on local network for output.

More or less a realtime hardware Redcine with VTR control.
Excellent for offline in traditional tape based workflows.
 
rebusfilm said:
A rackmounted device
Front: CF slot(s), Shelf/tray for RedRaid, FW800 connector, USB connector.
Touchpanel display with settings.

Back: HDMI, HD-SDI, SDI downconvert, VTR control, Gigabit ethernet.

Software:
Apply .looks via web interface. Superimpose metadata.
Point to a folder containing r3d on local network for output.

More or less a realtime hardware Redcine with VTR control.
Excellent for offline in traditional tape based workflows.
Click to expand...

guys, you are designing a new product :)
All good ideas, but i suppose red ray should be keept simple.
.looks file are a great idea, also the web interface and gigabit ether - sadly they all add *full* new layers of debugging, issues, necessary hardware & software, protocol support etc.

3G HD-SDI is also nice, but its not compatible with >98% of the 100.000s existing HD-SDI devices in studios, stations, venues, museums, posthouses etc.

maybe we should start another thread beside the RS422/232 control, EPIC red ray :)
 
rebusfilm said:
A rackmounted device
Front: CF slot(s), Shelf/tray for RedRaid, FW800 connector, USB connector.
Touchpanel display with settings.

Back: HDMI, HD-SDI, SDI downconvert, VTR control, Gigabit ethernet.

Software:
Apply .looks via web interface. Superimpose metadata.
Point to a folder containing r3d on local network for output.

More or less a realtime hardware Redcine with VTR control.
Excellent for offline in traditional tape based workflows.
Click to expand...
Dude... this thing is wayyy beyond RED RAY :biggrin:

Another one from me is 3D LUT support.
 
i don't know if this has been mentioned before, but it should also be possible to use red ray as multimedia feeder for museums, trade shows, etc. which provides 4 different 2k images at the same time - a 4k splitscreen!

so another reason, why rs422 / rs 232 could be quite useful ...

just my 2 cents - regards, martin
 
As the rule goes "keep it simple":

1: Plays REDRAY
2. Plays R3D
3. Has RS232/422
4. HD-SDI (audio+TC embedded) + HDMI (?)
5. Data outs

6. Small, therefore portable and easy to install
7. Keep the price, keep the price!

JohnF
 
I just found this thread and I'd have to say that we would have a similar requirements.
Dual link HDSDI at max quality, VTR Control for our non native systems (Autodesk, Avid)
Potentially something along the lines of 2K HSDL (kind of old fashioned)
Embedded audio.
Keyboard, Mouse, Monitor output. Or remote java app login to manage configs.

And available before 2009 :biggrin:

JohnF said:
As the rule goes "keep it simple":
1: Plays REDRAY
2. Plays R3D
3. Has RS232/422
4. HD-SDI (audio+TC embedded) + HDMI (?)
5. Data outs

6. Small, therefore portable and easy to install
7. Keep the price, keep the price!

JohnF
Click to expand...
 
I'm not completely au fait with how quad HD-SDI/HDMI 4K is implemented (is it actually a standard yet?) eg: is it actually just four 1080 pictures? I ask because somebody above mentioned using the four outputs as separate synchronised 1080 signals. This would indeed be awesome for advertising/AV media purposes.
 
I recall talking to Stuart at the first NAB and suggesting deck control ports on the camera from the get-go.

Laguun etc. - while it would be cool to have a transcoding, burning, DRM-enabled, deck controllable device for studio work and theatrical presentation that allows for automation....that is a COMPLETELY different device than a sub-$1000 player that will play .R3D from DVD or CF or attached FW drive (be it Red Drive or generic drive).

Stuart - any idea on the file structure, navigation, controls? I realize it is early, but is the plan to have a menu structure possible, or is it just a list of files, pick one and go? Or maybe include a .txt file that tells the player which files to play in which order upon insertion, and then you can go to the Menu to play whatever else is attached?

Thoughts at this point, or too early to tell?

I'd love this thing to be able to support motion menus with rollovers etc, so that properly formatted, end client grade delivery stuff could be done.

-mike
 
...and yeah, the option to configure for:
-a single quad link 4K output
-a single dual link output
-two dual link outputs (just pass the signal through to the other pair of ports)
-1-4 identical HD outputs (again, just replicate the signal - drive 4 screens!)

...would be very cool.

But again, the point is to have a low price point for wide adoption. Is it to be a consumer device (lowest possible cost because widest possible deployment to amortize dev costs), a post/studio device (higher feature set, hence higher price), or a theatrical presentation device with automation, security and the like? (...which would entail more R&D, more development for a MUCH smaller user base, hence MUCH higher price point - seen DCI server prices????).

I say start with the low cost consumer device, then see if there is market to go from there.

The fact that they are developing a device that will play source .R3D files from CF or drives, AS WELL AS long form 4K from DVD-9 or FireWire drive (some kind of RGB Redcode with keyframes/long GOP? Or will they do like DVDs/Blu-ray/broadcast and go 4:2:0 Y'CbCr to further reduce bandwidth requirements?) is GREAT.

Take Awesomeness 1.0, then see if 2.0 is forthcoming. More features you try to cram in there, the longer it takes to develop and the more it costs. If Red Ray works as described at the stated price point and ships in a year I'll happilly buy one.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top