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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED RAY - larger optical media / PINK RAY :)

Mind You Laguun - RED is not going to buy LG's DVD drives, plaster them all over with aluminum or grey plastic with big red logo and sell them as RED-RAY. If they will end up using red-laser DVD technology with proprietary red-code-raw codec support - they will end up manufacturing them (or get them manufactured for them) and hence they will need to license the technology. Ditto for Blu-Ray. That's how it works on our Earth... :innocent:
 
Peter Majtan said:
Mind You Laguun - RED is not going to buy LG's DVD drives, plaster them all over with aluminum or grey plastic with big red logo and sell them as RED-RAY. If they will end up using red-laser DVD technology with proprietary red-code-raw codec support - they will end up manufacturing them (or get them manufactured for them) and hence they will need to license the technology. Ditto for Blu-Ray. That's how it works on our Earth... :innocent:
Click to expand...

red will buy standard oem-drives, as anyone else. Red will buy LGs (or anyone elses) DVD or blu-ray drives.

Red will not manufacture dvd or blu-ray drives, they wont own the plant, and they wont be manufacturing neither red or blue diodes for lasers.

a codec (which is the real trick) has nothing to do with the hardware.
Speaking of NAB-announcements and gambling:
i would like to bet >5.000 on €/$ on this. Do you take the bet?
 
If what You are saying Laguun that RED is going to buy standard OEM drive (without any modification) - something You or I can buy ourselves - and then re-sell it as branded RED-REY...

...and what I am saying is that RED will either manufacture the drives themselves (from pre-made components, but not the whole OEM drive), or will get it CUSTOM made (just like RED ONE in Singapore) with specialized processing boards and chips designed to handle Red-Code-Raw through HW/SW inside the drive itself and then sell it as RED-RAY to customers - i.e. NON-STANDARD-OEM drive and as results no other manufacturer will be able to buy the same custom made drive without the permission & licensing from RED...

Then I AM a game and I am willing to bet a brand new Scarlet after it comes out...

Do we have a deal?
 
the problem with blu ray is the mastering costs. yes you create a copy on a blu ray burner and thats great. but as soon as you want to go to a replicator the cash register starts making that noise. even without AACS getting an optical master created costs a small fortune right now unlike dvd which costs next to nothing to get the mastering done. 500 dvd's with 4 colour artwork and case only costs about $1000. if you wanted 500 blu rays right now you're looking at 30 to 40 grand. not so much because the individual replication costs a lot but because the optical master costs a lot.
 
I agree with you, laguun... I don't see the logic behind using DVD as the medium. If they've managed, via some compression wizardry, to get 2 hours of 4K to look great at the small file size of a DVD, then it just means having a disc with 5x the space would allow for even less compression, more content, or both. It sounds like the codec will be killer, but I think by the time it comes out and blank BD-R discs are much less expensive, it will seem like an odd choice.
 
Laguun, you should take Peter up on that Scarlet bet.

I'm sure they'll use OEM drives. They'll hook up the IDE / SATA connection from those OEM drives to a controller card (probably also OEM). Custom decompression logic will be further down the chain.

Oh and personally I don't see the point of the DVD drive myself. I'd go Blu-Ray or else I don't see the point of optical.

I also think a well-encoded 50gb Blu-Ray video at 1080p with lossless high-res audio etc will look and sound better than a 4.7gb DVD (okay more if it's dual-layer...) with a RedCode video file at 4K, unless all you're showing is black and white 4K resolution charts.

So yes, you can guess I'm not too keen on the Ray part of Red-Ray. Everything else sounds promising on multiple levels but if I were Red I wouldn't waste my time with the bulky optical drive. If they chucked it and gave you something else cool, like an ethernet port, or built-in storage, or two hard drive ports and the ability to dub / backup stuff (think automated in-field CF / drive backup etc), it'd be much cooler IMHO. This just seems like they're wasting their time trying to take a weird swipe at Sony. I think they should pick their battles... just my 2c.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
I also think a well-encoded 50gb Blu-Ray video at 1080p with lossless high-res audio etc will look and sound better than a 4.7gb DVD (okay more if it's dual-layer...) with a RedCode video file at 4K, unless all you're showing is black and white 4K resolution charts.
Click to expand...
Well, we haven't seen this new variant of redcode yet that's going to squish our videos down in size in the best manner possible. Keep in mind that MPEG-2 is over 15 years old and even H.264 is five years old. Those are the only two "legal" codecs you can use to burn a Blu-ray-player compliant disc. I don't doubt that what Deanan and Graeme and the others have cooking is a more efficient, better quality codec that will scale beautifully and allow us some great looking video at reasonable file sizes. All I'm saying is that 50GB is better than 9GB, no matter what codec you use. :-)
 
Peter Majtan said:
Do we have a deal Laggun?
Click to expand...

red will use oem/omd drives. as in the redraid - standard sata disks.
a packaging of such standard devices, interface rewiring or bios flash to avoid 3hrd party use doesnt qualify as an own product.

In the 90s, several exchanged signal and power on the standard SCSI interface to build "propietary" hardware.

This is all possible.

However, DVD-drives or bluray drives or harddisk drives wont be "manufactured" by red. That is the whole idea of ODM/OEM. An Apple Computer today also isnt built by Apple.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_Design_Manufacturer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_equipment_manufacturer

RED is, for good reason, OEM/ODM.
 
Bruce Allen said:
Laguun, you should take Peter up on that Scarlet bet.
Click to expand...
I sure should. However we need, as gentlemen, precise terms and a referee :)

Bruce Allen said:
I'm sure they'll use OEM drives. They'll hook up the IDE / SATA connection from those OEM drives to a controller card (probably also OEM). Custom decompression logic will be further down the chain.
Click to expand...
>99% probability.


Oh and personally I don't see the point of the DVD drive myself. I'd go Blu-Ray or else I don't see the point of optical.


Bruce Allen said:
I also think a well-encoded 50gb Blu-Ray video at 1080p with lossless high-res audio etc will look and sound better than a 4.7gb DVD (okay more if it's dual-layer...) with a RedCode video file at 4K, unless all you're showing is black and white 4K resolution charts.

So yes, you can guess I'm not too keen on the Ray part of Red-Ray. Everything else sounds promising on multiple levels but if I were Red I wouldn't waste my time with the bulky optical drive. If they chucked it and gave you something else cool, like an ethernet port, or built-in storage, or two hard drive ports and the ability to dub / backup stuff (think automated in-field CF / drive backup etc), it'd be much cooler IMHO. This just seems like they're wasting their time trying to take a weird swipe at Sony. I think they should pick their battles... just my 2c.
Click to expand...

blu-ray would make much more sense than DVD.
- higher speed & bandwith for even better quality
- higher capacity (up to 50GB)+
- price difference with oem/omd drives will be $$

Sony with all it flaws is a great and technological outstanding company, and they are -the- pioneers of digital cinema since 1999. I share the critical POV of many regarding their pricing, distribution, crippled products etc - however there is a reason red is using their 4K cinealta projector - its simply one of the best projectors available in this part of the universe. If one doesnt want blu-ray as sony co-developped it, one should also stop using CD or DVD.
 
According to this logic every product on the market is OEM/ODM as they all include some components from other companies... Apple's products are Apple's products, no matter who makes them. According to You anyone could by the iPhone directly from the Taiwanese manufacturer and get them in blue color, mark them xPhone and sell them under their own brand. Apple lawyers will have a field day out of them...

"a packaging of such standard devices, interface rewiring or bios flash to avoid 3hrd party use doesnt qualify as an own product."

A) This is what makes it Your own product
B) The required processing boards with BIOS, etc... will not be there to "avoid 3hrd party use", but to allow native playback of r3d files from the CF cards and the optical media...

But that was not the point of the argument. I have clearly said:

"If what You are saying Laguun that RED is going to buy standard OEM drive (without any modification) - something You or I can buy ourselves - and then re-sell it as branded RED-REY..."

(Which implies that there will be external SW-only drivers to allow the red-code playback)

"...and what I am saying is that RED will either manufacture the drives themselves (from pre-made components, but not the whole OEM drive), or will get it CUSTOM made (just like RED ONE in Singapore) with specialized processing boards and chips designed to handle Red-Code-Raw through HW/SW inside the drive itself and then sell it as RED-RAY to customers - i.e. NON-STANDARD-OEM drive and as results no other manufacturer will be able to buy the same custom made drive without the permission & licensing from RED..."

This is clear statement and there can be no misrepresentation of it. Any senior RED team member could stand in as judge (Ideally Big Jon, since he seams to be in charge of Scarlet)...

I am not against Blu-Ray technology. Sure 50GB is better then 9GB. I have never said anything like that. I just doubt that given the current relationship between RED and SONY, SONY will agree to license Blu-Ray to RED. However this relationship have the possibility to improve once SONY realize that their 4K projectors and 4K LCD/PLASMA/OLED TV's and monitors will sell better when more 4K content is generated (thanks to RED)...

Sure it will be great to have 50GB Red-Ray drive handling red-code RAW based on Blu-Ray. I just don't see it happening due to "political" reasons...
 
Peter Majtan said:
I am not against Blu-Ray technology. Sure 50GB is better then 9GB. I have never said anything like that. I just doubt that given the current relationship between RED and SONY, SONY will agree to license Blu-Ray to RED.
Click to expand...

I think you are not understanding how the economy works.
red can buy any blu-ray drive without any license from any reseller or manufacturer. OEM/ODM.

red would need a license if they would plan to manufacture drives. this is business not in reds scale.

remember. red ~30 employees. sony >150.000.

a chip plant, as for the cell chips: ~ 2-4.000.000.000 billion dollars. reds total revenue ~150.000.000.
 
Häakon said:
Well, we haven't seen this new variant of redcode yet that's going to squish our videos down in size in the best manner possible. Keep in mind that MPEG-2 is over 15 years old and even H.264 is five years old. Those are the only two "legal" codecs you can use to burn a Blu-ray-player compliant disc. I don't doubt that what Deanan and Graeme and the others have cooking is a more efficient, better quality codec that will scale beautifully and allow us some great looking video at reasonable file sizes. All I'm saying is that 50GB is better than 9GB, no matter what codec you use. :-)
Click to expand...

Close. ;-)

You can also author Blu Ray discs with VC-1.
 
Laguun, of course RED is not going to build a factory to make the drives. Even Apple, who is "slightly" larger then RED, get their stuff made by factories in the far East. That doesn't make Apple's products OEM. It would imply that anyone else could by Apple's product directly from the Asian factory and sell them under their own mark. Same way (like Apple) RED designs their product by themselves up to the final production prototype and then contract another factory in Asia to make it for them. I do understand how the economy works, You don't need to be rocket scientist...

The point where we disagree is that You are implying that thy will just buy any OEM drive, put a custom case on it and sell it as RED-RAY drive. I'm saying that they will design their own drive (maybe based around Blu-Ray optical unit), but with custom processing boards that will allow HW playback of redcode-raw, sandwich-in other custom and 3-rd party HW components (such as the CF card reader), fit it into custom case and sell it as RED-RAY. If I am correct - no other party could by the same custom unit and sell it under their brand. If You are correct - anyone else could by the OEM unit from the actual manufacturer (not RED) and sell it under their brand.

No way - no how...

I'm still up for the bet if You are...
 
Ah, gotcha... Peter, you have actually been saying the same thing as Laguun. I think there is semantic confusion here.

Laguun said it would use OEM components (eg drive). He did not say the whole thing would be an OEM unit.

I think you are saying exactly the same thing?

If the RED-RAY optical drive breaks, you could probably open up the case and connect a different (OEM) drive up to the circuit board, just as with a laptop. Right, or not right?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Almost. The drives in the laptops are self-contained units (OEM) that connect via standard computer interface (such IDE/ATA, etc...). Optical drive units for media players are little different. Sure RED is going to buy some 3rd party optical unit and get the manufacturer to modify it (certainly the data/signal processing board) based on their own (RED's) designs. There is no current optical drive that could handle 4K output - which alone brings me to the conclusion that the Red-Ray is going to be custom made based on RED's prototype. Definitely not something You can buy OEM off the shelf...
 
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