RED RAY - larger optical media / PINK RAY :)

[Peter Majtan]

I have done some research and it appears that Red-Ray is using standard DVD recording mechanism (red laser). It is not a Blu-Ray device. At least for now this is what Ted is clarifying around the world...

 

[Stephen Gentle]

If what You are saying Laguun that RED is going to buy standard OEM drive (without any modification) - something You or I can buy ourselves - and then re-sell it as branded RED-REY...

...and what I am saying is that RED will either manufacture the drives themselves (from pre-made components, but not the whole OEM drive), or will get it CUSTOM made (just like RED ONE in Singapore) with specialized processing boards and chips designed to handle Red-Code-Raw through HW/SW inside the drive itself and then sell it as RED-RAY to customers - i.e. NON-STANDARD-OEM drive and as results no other manufacturer will be able to buy the same custom made drive without the permission & licensing from RED..

The actual drive mechanism will probably be OEM - it could just be a slot loading laptop drive or a drive with a modified tray to look the part... But I doubt they would actually bother making their own...

If they got OEM drives, they would not need to be modified - they would plug in to RED's boards with the decoder chips and so on just as they plug into your computer's motherboard.

EDIT: On further inspection, it seems that everything I said above was kind of already said by Bruce...

Almost. The drives in the laptops are self-contained units (OEM) that connect via standard computer interface (such IDE/ATA, etc...). Optical drive units for media players are little different. Sure RED is going to buy some 3rd party optical unit and get the manufacturer to modify it (certainly the data/signal processing board) based on their own (RED's) designs. There is no current optical drive that could handle 4K output - which alone brings me to the conclusion that the Red-Ray is going to be custom made based on RED's prototype. Definitely not something You can buy OEM off the shelf...

It doesn't have to be different though - I could make a DVD player that had a mpeg2 decoder, dsp, and a sata or ata controller etc. so it could read off a standard data DVD drive.... Then the optical drive does not need to handle 480i or 720p or 4K output - just move data that I can feed through my DSP/decoder.

 

[laguun]

no matter if red will use blu-ray or dvd oem drives, the data will be probably fed by p/s-ata from a standard drive to the ASICs/FPGAs residing on another board.

The main misunderstanding Peter has is that you dont need any licenses etc to resell oem dvd or blu-ray drives with own branding.

The main topic here was basically hijacked, and that is that IMHO 4.7 GB or 9.4 GB is *very* little storgae, and the slightly higher price (~$$-150$) for an 25/50GB blu-ray drive would be an excellent addition.

 

[Peter Majtan]

My bad Laguun - would You be so kind and point to me ANY optical drive based on the Blu-Ray technology that DOES NOT carry the Blu-Ray logo/branding? OR for that matter any CD/DVD drive that does not carry the CD/DVD logo/brandind? Or relevant optical media for the respective systems that DO NOT carry the respective logo/branding? It is all bout licensing and politics. Every industry is and ours is not immune. I also believe RED want's to keep the system affordable. The good news is the SONY is slowly warming up to RED with their SXRD projectors and vice-versa (unless RED is cooking up their own projector). All manufacturers of 4K display/projection technologies have to be grateful to RED for making it that much easier to generate 4K content, without which there is no point for such a tech. Any other 4K content acquisition formats (besides of scanning 35mm film and CGI)?

 

[laguun]

My bad Laguun - would You be so kind and point to me ANY optical drive based on the Blu-Ray technology that DOES NOT carry the Blu-Ray logo/branding?

That is completly irrelevant.
Reselling optical drives as datadrives doesnt require membership in the blu-ray group, compact disc ISO or DVD forum.

A usual computer reseller next door will be able to explain you this en detail.

The good news is the SONY is slowly warming up to RED with their SXRD projectors and vice-versa (unless RED is cooking up their own projector).

Sony was doing 4K years before red even was founded, in fact the first digitally projected 4K i saw was showcased by sony to us (2004? 2005?).

Typical for larger cooperations, different POVs do and did exist in sonys workforce. While the camera, monitor, storage and to-air divisions aim at 2K/1080P mainly, the projection group forces 4K since ~2003 - and meanwhile also the tape recorders are 4K - all under the same cinealta label.

many, if not most, of the japanese developers i spoke to skipped 4K and went directly to 8K. Their system are installed since 2005. The NHK proposes 8K as a broadcast standard, and the cameras, projectors, optics, remotes, recorders etc are working fine since 2005/2006.

In the Americas and the EU however, digital 2K takes >95% of the cinema projector sales so far. I hope that this will change over time, but the quite small 2K/4K difference on typical screens at cinemas is so far sadly not justifying the higher cost for most exhibitors.

All manufacturers of 4K display/projection technologies have to be grateful to RED for making it that much easier to generate 4K content, without which there is no point for such a tech.

I fully agree.

Any other 4K content acquisition formats (besides of scanning 35mm film and CGI)?

Many. i.e. JVC and Hitachi have higher resolution cameras (8k), Dalsa and Vision have 4K Cameras - most of them are recording uncompressed. In fact Dalsa was the 4K digital pioneer for cameras, the 4K Origin was introduced several years before red.

 

[Peter Majtan]

That is completly irrelevant.
Reselling optical drives as datadrives doesnt require membership in the blu-ray group, compact disc ISO or DVD forum. A usual computer reseller next door will be able to explain you this en detail.

How on Earth this can be "completly irrelevant"?!? If this is truly Your opinion I don't see any point to further continue this part of the debate...

Sony was doing 4K years before red even was founded, in fact the first digitally projected 4K i saw was showcased by sony to us (2004? 2005?).

RED Digital Cinema (and the ideas behind it) started in 1999, so please get Your facts straight...

Typical for larger cooperations, different POVs do and did exist in sonys workforce. While the camera, monitor, storage and to-air divisions aim at 2K/1080P mainly, the projection group forces 4K since ~2003 - and meanwhile also the tape recorders are 4K - all under the same cinealta label.

many, if not most, of the japanese developers i spoke to skipped 4K and went directly to 8K. Their system are installed since 2005. The NHK proposes 8K as a broadcast standard, and the cameras, projectors, optics, remotes, recorders etc are working fine since 2005/2006.

I have spent the better part of 2004, 2005 and 2006 in Tokyo as the "Head of R&D and Special Projects" for a privately owned EYEdentify Inc. One of my projects involved close relations with both SONY and NHK, way beyond "taking with developers". Due to many NDA's I can't even begin to elaborate on the inaccuracy of Your statement...

In the Americas and the EU however, digital 2K takes >95% of the cinema projector sales so far. I hope that this will change over time, but the quite small 2K/4K difference on typical screens at cinemas is so far sadly not justifying the higher cost for most exhibitors.

So how exactly would the "8K" fit into this picture?

I fully agree.

I'm glad we agree on something...

Many. i.e. JVC and Hitachi have higher resolution cameras (8k), Dalsa and Vision have 4K Cameras - most of them are recording uncompressed. In fact Dalsa was the 4K digital pioneer for cameras, the 4K Origin was introduced several years before red.

OK - let me rephrase:

"Any other REALISTIC 4K content acquisition formats (besides of scanning 35mm film and CGI)?"

 

[Peter Majtan]

And before You go off... ...by REALISTIC I mean affordable and accessible for every-day filmmakers...

 

[laguun]

RED Digital Cinema (and the ideas behind it) started in 1999, so please get Your facts straight...

red started in public late 2005. the red one was announced april 2006. first prototypes working on the field were early 2007. delivery to customers in larger number started late 2007.
sonys market introduction of the srx 4K was 2004.

One of my projects involved close relations with both SONY and NHK, way beyond "taking with developers". Due to many NDA's I can't even begin to elaborate on the inaccuracy of Your statement...

8K UHDTV is public since 2003 and doesnt need any NDAs.
early press from 2003.
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/Ultra-high-resolution-television-UHDV-prototype.html
a shot an assistant of me took in 2006 while the demonstration:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/9/98/Uhdfuji0000.jpg

"Any other REALISTIC 4K content acquisition formats (besides of scanning 35mm film and CGI)?"
And before You go off... ...by REALISTIC I mean affordable and accessible for every-day filmmakers...

dalsa, vision research phantom, jvk, hitachi... there are many.
production cost is mainly in front, around and behind of the camera, not the camera rental itself.
for everyday shooting, 4K has to be in the $$$-$.$$$ range, not in the mid $$.$$$. That will happen not to far from here.

red is excellent and advancing the industry on many fronts - they dont need false and heightened compliments, its excellent what they have acomplished.

now, please lets go back to to the topic: 25/50GB optical media with higher datarates would be better than 4.3/8.7GB with lower datarates for redray, and the difference in price for the optical drive will be $$.

 

[Peter Majtan]

The technical comments I would like to make however do fall under NDA. The proposed 8K format was far from "working fine since 2005/2006". But since I can't comment I agree to drop this issue...

I agree that "25/50GB optical media with higher datarates would be better than 4.3/8.7GB with lower datarates", but "the difference in price for the optical drive will be $$" and the actual reality of the deal will greatly depend on the licensing issues, which You seams to be shunning away as "completly irrelevant"...

 

[Peter Majtan]

red started in public late 2005. the red one was announced april 2006. first prototypes working on the field were early 2007. delivery to customers in larger number started late 2007.
sonys market introduction of the srx 4K was 2004.

But You have said "Sony was doing 4K years before red even was founded"

The idea and R&D behind RED begun few years before 2005. I have just reacted to the "tone" of Your post trying to make Sony somehow "more" or "better" then what RED has done. I was personally involved in the 4K SXRD R&D, especially the DVI input board and direct-to-computer/GPU interfacing. The engineers in Atsugi did a great job never the less, but comparing it to RED's achievement in the way You did was not entirely "correct"...

 

[laguun]

I agree that "25/50GB optical media with higher datarates would be better than 4.3/8.7GB with lower datarates", but "the difference in price for the optical drive will be $$" and the actual reality of the deal will greatly depend on the licensing issues, which You seams to be shunning away as "completly irrelevant"...

Peter,

blu-ray drives, which are at 80€ retail price here in europe meanwhile, can be bought and sold without -any- license.

 

[Peter Majtan]

On one-to-one consumer level. Try to buy 10000 of them, modify the boards to support HW Red-Code-RAW, label it Red-Ray and sell them for profit without any Blu-Ray labeling what so ever. Blu-Ray consortium's lawyers would have a field day...

 

[laguun]

On one-to-one consumer level. Try to buy 10000 of them, modify the boards to support HW Red-Code-RAW, label it Red-Ray and sell them for profit without any Blu-Ray labeling what so ever. Blu-Ray consortium's lawyers would have a field day...

Peter i have to admit that i am getting bored, as you seem not to want, or be able, to understand what many people here try to explain to you.
Buying and reselling consumer electronic goods as cd, dvd or bluray drives doesn require *any* contracts. The market is *completly* free. No difference if CD, DVD, blu-ray. *Any* reseller knows that, and deals according to this day by day in *any* part of the consumer electronics, computer & IT resale and manufacturing.

red buys compact/flash cards. resells them.
red isnt part of the c/f group.
the electronics are outside of the storage, in the camera.outside of the c/f card.
the c/f cards are connected by sata.
no license needed. not for 10.000 units.

red buys harddisk. resells them.
red doesnt manufacture hardisks.
the electronics of red are outside of the storage, in the camera and case.
the harddisk are connected by sata.
no license needed. not for 10.000 units.

red buys optical drive. resells them.
red doesnt manufacture optical drives, nor is red member of the bluray or dvd-group.
the electronics of red are outside of the storage, in the case.
the optical drive is connected by sata.
no license needed. not for 10.000 units.

If you want to keep on posting wild and dark conspiracy fantasies regarding red being sued by the dvd-interest group (which sony is leading part of...) or the blu-ray group, go ahead - its non-sense nevertheless as so many people tried to explain you.

 

[Noah Kadner]

On one-to-one consumer level. Try to buy 10000 of them, modify the boards to support HW Red-Code-RAW, label it Red-Ray and sell them for profit without any Blu-Ray labeling what so ever. Blu-Ray consortium's lawyers would have a field day...

I'm not so sure. I doubt having a Blu-Ray label on the side of a RED Box is that big a deal. And the consortium probably hasn't got a beef if hardware is moving. We certainly know a lot of REDs gear is either in house mods or developed by 3rd parties who remain nameless- i.e. the CF cards. I'm sure whatever legal realities exist would be outweighed by the potential sales- should they choose to go that way.

Not that it's totally necessary to go to Blu-Ray. Personally I think flash or something like it is a more sensible option as removable media with room to grow. Just seems like limiting the media to DVD capacity is going to make this product go obsolete rather quickly, especially as it's already potentially up to a year off from hitting the market.

Noah

 

[laguun]

Personally I think flash or something like it is a more sensible option as removable media with room to grow.

true, but cost of optical storage is so much lower than electronic - 6 bucks for 25GB as of now, falling fast.

Just seems like limiting the media to DVD capacity is going to make this product go obsolete rather quickly, especially as it's already potentially up to a year off from hitting the market.

true. The 1995 DVD standard will be low to mid-class in 2008, and with prices as 10-20 for a DVD drive and (even today) already 80 for blu-ray drives, reds high-tech & state of the art approach would be better underlined with modern optical systems instead of elder one.

Also, the burning speed and quality of blu-ray is higher, which increases day by day ergonomics for any user.

 

[Peter Majtan]

But RED still calls the CF card a CF card...
Harddisk (or HDD) is not a registered brand or trade mark...
Rest assured that when RED-RAY's labeled discs appears (if they do), they will carry the respective DVD-R (or DVD+R, or what else) logo on them. They may be colored RED and have the buzzsaw logo on it, but if they are based on that technology they will have to respect the licensing rules:

(from http://www.dvdfllc.co.jp/index.html)

Q.: Who needs the DVD Format/Logo License?

A.:

1) Replicators of pre-recorded DVD discs / Manufacturers of writable DVD discs

2) Manufacturers of DVD Players, Recorders, Drives, Decoders and PC Recording and Authoring Software.

3) Manufacturers of other DVD Products that utilize the information disclosed in the DVD Format Books. These include IC Chip makers and authoring tools for professional use, etc.

Now RED doesn't need to apply for the DVD license if their drive or media is going to be manufactured by an official DVD licensee. They would have to follow the instruction of the licensee in this regards. They would not be able to "remove" any such a markings (if any) by the original manufacturer and they would certainly not be able to brand it Red-Ray without some sort of agreement in place...

 

[Noah Kadner]

I think you're kinda missing the point. RED can call it whatever they want to and if by using Blu-Ray drives as the storage medium they are obligated to place the Blu-Ray logo on the side, who cares ultimately? I'd certainly hate to think that was the only reason to hold back an otherwise good idea with older technology.

Noah

 

[Peter Majtan]

This was precisely my original point, that maybe it is this licensing issue, that would ultimately involve some sort of talks between RED and SONY, that is keeping RED from adopting Blu-Ray for its Red-Ray. Or maybe just RED does not see the future of optical medias beyond standard DVD and expect the industry to move to something else (like SS) by the time DVD is outdated...

I am not going to poke into this anymore, but You should just check the amount of law-suits pounded on Apple Inc. almost every week by (mostly) greedy entities... Any of these suits could kill RED, so they could be just staying away from any potential "situations" and playing it safe. If the red-laser DVD technology can handle 4K in reasonable quality, then so be it...

If they work things out with Blu-Ray - so be it as well... I would also like to see the larger and faster format (read = I understand Your point), but I just don't think is that easy as re-labeling 3-rd party products...

 

[laguun]

holy cow.

once and for all:
no-one needs a permit, a license or even talks with any member of the dvd or blu-ray group to -resell- optical drives, be it CD, dvd or bluray.

That -cant- be so complicated to understand.

 

[Noah Kadner]

This was precisely my original point, that maybe it is this licensing issue, that would ultimately involve some sort of talks between RED and SONY, that is keeping RED from adopting Blu-Ray for its Red-Ray. Or maybe just RED does not see the future of optical medias beyond standard DVD and expect the industry to move to something else (like SS) by the time DVD is outdated...

I am not going to poke into this anymore, but You should just check the amount of law-suits pounded on Apple Inc. almost every week by (mostly) greedy entities... Any of these suits could kill RED, so they could be just staying away from any potential "situations" and playing it safe. If the red-laser DVD technology can handle 4K in reasonable quality, then so be it...

If they work things out with Blu-Ray - so be it as well... I would also like to see the larger and faster format (read = I understand Your point), but I just don't think is that easy as re-labeling 3-rd party products...

I hear what you're saying but I don't really thing it's nearly as big an issue as you make it out to be. RED will release whatever product they want to. And yes, they will get sued left right and center in the coming years just like any other company. That's the cost of doing business in the USA.

Noah