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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED Prime Lens Set

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I find it interesting that you know more about what I do for a living than I do, Epic.

big lebowski said:
Funny that the Ultra Primes skip the 18 mm too. :wink:
Click to expand...

You do make a good point... but they also have a 16mm and 20mm to fill in the gaps. Hell, they don't have a large gap anywhere from 8mm to 180mm. I love me some wide lenses when the situation calls for it, but a 10mm gap in the wide spectrum of a lens set is tough to swallow.

I suppose that, ultimately, the answer is "don't buy 'em, Brook..." :)
 
Wow!...You (Epic Films) brought me out of the woodwork this time! I don't post my opinion very often on these forums (you can tell), but I do like to read those of others and very much enjoy learning from their opinions and experience. I also have been around the DP block a few times, and have always appreciated my AC's opinions (and knowledge)...and many times that person has saved my butt, both artistically, and technically.

One of the persons I have always paid attention to in this forum has been Brook, and I do think that most smart/experienced/knowledgeble people do/would also...I don't care what his title is.

And by the way, I agree with Brook...I have owned in the past, a set of Super Speeds and a Zeiss 14mm (ok it's not a 15mm). The 18 was/is used a lot, whereas the 14 was not (reason I sold it). And I like to think of myself as a 'real' guy.

Larry Gebhardt
Atlanta, GA and Marina del Rey, CA
www.velocity.tv
Red #2228
 
18mm will play more often than 15mm - but 15mm is a nice wide ...

If I had a choice - I'd take BOTH. If I could only have ONE - I'd take the 18mm.

Regardless, if these lenses are sharp - and well built - I want a set yesterday.
 
Play nice kids...

Not sure where you are getting your info from Epic.... but the 18mm is pretty standard in the industry and is one of the more common wide focal lengths in hollywood (and beyond) .

I don't think any of us needs to question Brook's abilities... if that is what you are doing.
 
Epic,
Brook's worked with Dion Bebee, Claudio Miranda, Mark Plummer and a plenty of other name DP's I think you'd recognize and I know that whatever you might think, they all listened to him no matter what he was telling them. Because he knows his shit, and regardless of position his uncanny handle on all things cinematographic is a force I think you are unqualified to critique my friend.

Back on task...
I've voiced my opinion here a few times but owning a set that starts at 16mm has given me an affinity for this focal length. I think 16mm is more desirable than 15mm but it's splitting hairs really. My biggest point of contention is that it's not T1.9 and not matching. If it's necessary to make the lens 18mm to make it T1.9 then so be it.

A perfect example was today. I shooting an interior that required me to be wide open to get correct exposure (T2.1 on my standard Zeiss set) I needed to shoot a wide dolly shot, a tight close up and an insert of an alarm clock.
With my matched set I only needed to light the scene once and tweak accordingly regardless of the focal length in use. Had my wide needed more light to match I would have had to bring more Kinos into an already cramped bedroom and take more time out of an already bulging schedule.

I may buy the Red primes anyway but if the 15mm remains a T2.8 I'm keeping my Zeiss 16mm! and selling the 15.
 
Evin Grant said:
Epic,
I may buy the Red primes anyway but if the 15mm remains a T2.8 I'm keeping my Zeiss 16mm! and selling the 15.
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Well, my friend, you sure won't be selling it to me:)

Emmanuel
 
Not to put down RED's prime lens attempt but the 15mm at F 2.8 would
have to be the 25mm F1.9 with Aspheron or wide angle adapter attached.
Possibly a little bendy and large at the front would be a good indication.
A rescale of iris and focus would get the whole with show on the road.
If this is the case, punters could do the same with adapters from Century or Zeiss for waht might end up being less money, less light loss and with a different or final
focal length closer to 18mm.
One can get a fixed focus 12mm by attaching a Zeiss Mutar Aspheron Lens
to a Zeiss 20mm T2.1 Prime. Apply a similar lens to a RED 25mm and you may get a 19mm with closer to 1/3rd or 1/2 stop light loss.
Mezmo
 
Epic Films said:
I met the REDNINJAs at an expo in the fall and Brook was described to me as Evin's assistant - So I just thought he was a DIT/Assistant - Evin just reinforced that by explaining he works with alot of DP's - not as a DP - That was my point -
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Not to beat a dead horse, but.... Don't be so literal in how you take such statements. It's pretty inconsiderate to start saying what someone is or is not, solely based off of a statement made by someone else. And you're doing it again.

I met Brook at LART and he indeed knows his shit. He's a far more qualified DP than many DPs (perhaps even most) I've met over the years. It's not uncommon for one DP to ASSIST another.

You could always just visit his web site (http://www.brookwillard.com) to get a better feel for who or what Brook is. He markets himself as a DP.
 
We (4k Ninjas) are an interesting amalgam or talents, I do work primarily as a DP but as demand for knowledgeable Red technicians and camera operators is high I have no bones about taking those jobs to get my camera rented. The world is changing and in order to have the freedom to shoot some of the more creative projects, sometimes it's necessary to be flexible.
 
not having all the Primes with the same T stop is restrictive and would be problematic on a professional production.

Can RED not get all the lenses even?

So with Prototypes being shown at NAB does that mean we are months away from actual shipping units?
 
I think you guys are asking too much here. These are pro quality lenses at a fraction of the price you would pay for a Cooke or a Zeiss. We cannot produce a 15mm T1.9 and have it be in this price range. All the others are T 1.9, and focus witness marked. We are trying to listen and respond. But keep your requests reasonable.

There is a delay in shipping primes. The project is difficult and we have made many changes to accommodate the requests. The lenses have been completely redesigned.

Jim
 
Hi Jim

Its so great that you listen to the wants and needs of users, you are what makes RED so great.

I'm really looking forward to see how these Lenses stack up.

I know that there are many professionals out there that would pay more for the needed tools of the trade.

If I had to pay $30,000 and get a complete toolset I would as I see paying $20,000 for almost there not a good economy.

Fair enough they are not Cooke or Zeiss but then again this is RED and RED isn't Arri, Sony or Panavision - it eats them for breakfast.

But as good as Cooke and Zeiss are surely there is a lot of mark up in the price and the "for rental only" attitude that keeps the prices way high.

I totally understand RED want to keep things affordable but I'm trying to avoid a false economy.

How about offering a Professional version of the lenses at a higher price but still within the reach of mortal man.

Or is it a case that Zeiss and Cooke are selling at cost and they really do cost a fortune to produce so are worth the high price of admission?
 
Rory,

The main reason we can offer the RED ONE, and these primes, at such a great price/performance ratio is that we are making many of them. Cooke makes few, which is part of the reason they are priced the way they are. If we can't sell many, we can't offer these types of prices. The prime set IS pro caliber. It seems to me that all you are talking about is the 15mm. If we only make a handful of 15mm T1.9, they will cost a fortune. For your situation, maybe a set of RED and a Cooke 14mm T2?

Also... keep in mind that these primes will be one of the 1st sets of "designed for digital" PL mount lenses.

Jim
 
I figured it couldn't hurt to ask for a matched lens. Thanks for giving us an answer quickly so people didn't have to wonder and discuss it for months.

Out of curiosity, are you guys planning to ever increase the breadth of the set? Five lenses is a great place to start... but will you guys ever offer wider and tighter primes [individually] to complete the set?

Or is that so far down the line that there's no way to even guess?
 
Hey Jim

Yes getting a Cooke to complement the set would be do able, although I know Cooke's have a different aesthetic to Zeiss so it would be good to see how well they fit in with RED's to match and not stand out in the edit.

Will the RED Primes be T1.9 or T2 as they are listed as F1.9 at the moment.

Its great that they will be the 1st Designed for Digital although I'm yet to understand what they means in reality. I have a set of Zeiss Standard Speeds that kick ass on the RED.

Can you shed some light as to how the are being produced, meaning will they be designed and built from scratch and not rehoused still lenses, which are great but not as good as specially made cinema lenses.

The REDONE is impressive and my glass addition demands the best glass I can afford to capture great images, its a problem that I need help with :-)
 
roryhinds said:
Its great that they will be the 1st Designed for Digital although I'm yet to understand what they means in reality.
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Generally it has to do with wavelength convergence. Film has multiple color layers, so a "perfect" film lens would have red, green and blue converge at slightly different flange depths. Blue would be the deepest, followed by green and red up front [if memory serves]. This is one of the reasons why a scene that is lit with only red light will often appear soft. Since the red layer is slightly forward of the green and blue layers of film, a completely red scene will not focus perfectly on the red layer of the film... closer to the green/blue layers, generally speaking.

Conversely, Bayer-pattern digital sensors are "flat" - all three colors exist on the same plane. As such, when one is designing a lens for a digital sensor, the goal is to make all wavelengths converge at exactly the same flange focal depth.

This is why certain lenses perform noticeably different on film versus digital sensors.

This may not be what RED is doing to "design for digital," but it's what I'd do if I were building some lenses.
 
Jannard said:
The main reason we can offer the RED ONE, and these primes, at such a great price/performance ratio is that we are making many of them. Cooke makes few, which is part of the reason they are priced the way they are. If we can't sell many, we can't offer these types of prices. The prime set IS pro caliber. It seems to me that all you are talking about is the 15mm. If we only make a handful of 15mm T1.9, they will cost a fortune.
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Jim,

I think we all appreciate your position, and I for one, take you at your word when you say the set WILL be pro caliber. However, it is no less of a fact that a) a lens that doesn't match the rest of the set in aperture always makes for a hard sale/rental and b) there is too much of a gap between 15mm and 25mm. I assume that you've already started production of the set, so the 15mm will stay, but in order to a) answer the demands of DP's who are very picky and finicky when it comes to glass, and b) make your life easier by producing a cheaper lens, wouldn't it have made more sense to make it a matching 18mm instead of the 15mm? You could then later on offer a nice wide zoom, like a 10-22mm or something like that, and sell it accordingly, as a specialized, high-end tool. Anyway, just thinking out loud, it is always easier to say how "I would do this or that" when you're not the one actually doing it :-)
 
Brook Willard said:
Generally it has to do with wavelength convergence. Film has multiple color layers, so a "perfect" film lens would have red, green and blue converge at slightly different flange depths. Blue would be the deepest, followed by green and red up front [if memory serves]. This is one of the reasons why a scene that is lit with only red light will often appear soft. Since the red layer is slightly forward of the green and blue layers of film, a completely red scene will not focus perfectly on the red layer of the film... closer to the green/blue layers, generally speaking.

Conversely, Bayer-pattern digital sensors are "flat" - all three colors exist on the same plane. As such, when one is designing a lens for a digital sensor, the goal is to make all wavelengths converge at exactly the same flange focal depth.

This is why certain lenses perform noticeably different on film versus digital sensors.

This may not be what RED is doing to "design for digital," but it's what I'd do if I were building some lenses.
Click to expand...

Brook, that sounds like a lot of nonsense. I'm not sure you're qualified to speak on such matters. Blue, red, green indeed. Before we know it, you'll be telling me there is camera that costs $17,500 capable of 4K.

Anyway, MiniDV is the way to go. Preferably Sony.

:)
 
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