I'm not Lucas, but as a reasonably long term Scratch user, I can supply an answer based on experience. Scratch is a Windows program. To get the most out of it, and certainly to use it in a professional environment (to my mind, the only way it's meant to be used) it should be run on a Windows box, preferably a rather high end Windows box, with full access to all peripherals and file systems it expects to see. That includes NVidia SDI cards, Bluefish and Aja video I/O cards, NTFS file systems on the system drive and on other drives as well, available multilane expansion slots (you're going to use them up completely in an Intel Mac simply by putting in the Aja and NVideo cards - and you can't put in the SDI card at all) and in general, full Windows compatibility, both hardware and software. Running Windows on an Intel Mac might be possible (indeed it is, and it runs well), but the hardware restrictions on the Apple side make it a dubious choice for a program like Scratch, which is really meant to be used with fairly specific hardware - especially in terms of the video card - that Apple doesn't happen to support. I'll repeat my oft-stated mantra: Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Especially in this case.
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I'm not Lucas, but as a reasonably long term Scratch user, I can supply an answer based on experience. Scratch is a Windows program. To get the most out of it, and certainly to use it in a professional environment (to my mind, the only way it's meant to be used) it should be run on a Windows box, preferably a rather high end Windows box, with full access to all peripherals and file systems it expects to see. That includes NVidia SDI cards, Bluefish and Aja video I/O cards, NTFS file systems on the system drive and on other drives as well, available multilane expansion slots (you're going to use them up completely in an Intel Mac simply by putting in the Aja and NVideo cards - and you can't put in the SDI card at all) and in general, full Windows compatibility, both hardware and software. Running Windows on an Intel Mac might be possible (indeed it is, and it runs well), but the hardware restrictions on the Apple side make it a dubious choice for a program like Scratch, which is really meant to be used with fairly specific hardware - especially in terms of the video card - that Apple doesn't happen to support. I'll repeat my oft-stated mantra: Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Especially in this case.
Lucas Wilson
REDuser Sponsor
As usual, Mike is right. If you're going to spend a bunch of money buying a cool camera and peripherals, why in the world would you skimp on an extra computer to run things as fast as they should run?
The best (and only) computer for RED Alert is an Intel Mac. REDCINE will run equally well on an Intel Mac w/ATI X1900 and an Intel/AMD PC w/NVidia 4600. Final Cut runs on OSX. Media Composer runs on XP and OSX. SCRATCH will run best and with the fullest feature set on a PC.
Get the best tool for the job - and that includes the best OS and best computer. If you are going to build an end-to-end RED ONE workflow with all native components, the path is really clear.
Get a beefy Intel Mac for RED Alert, FCP, and REDCINE.
Get a beefy PC for REDCINE and SCRATCH.
Tie them together with 10gigE, or some other really fast networking protocol.
Done.
You can use Avid, Adobe, Sony, Quantel, Autodesk, or any other application you like. I personally use Vegas and FCP at home for editorial.
But any non-native application has obvious workflow implications.
Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
You've inadvertently (or perhaps not) hit on one of the major differences between professional facilities/users and do-it-yourselfers. In the professional environment, we don't use computers. We use appliances that happen to be built on computers. We don't think of an Avid system as a computer - we think of it as an editing system. We also don't think of a Final Cut system as a computer, we think of it as an editing system. And we don't think of our Scratch system as a computer, either. We think of it as a DI/finishing box.
One of the biggest problems with trying to make a computer do all things well is that you ultimately create incompatibilities, whether it's software, hardware, or both. Different programs are on different revision levels of different drivers and system files, and there is no way to ever ensure that all of them will run properly given one set of system files and drivers. "Leaning out" a computer and making it essentially an appliance is the only way to guarantee that everything is as it should be. Not to mention the problems with putting these machines on the Internet. This is true regardless of whether you happen to be a Windows or Linux PC or a Mac. Now, this is not to say that you can't put After Effects on your Final Cut box. You can. But just be aware next time you update one or the other that you're not replacing files the other one depends on for proper operation. I would venture to say that at least 50-60% of the support calls fielded by Adobe and Apple probably have to do with incompatible drivers or system files that were loaded by a new program that the user was unaware of. This is especially true in the Windows world, but it's true for all computers running complex software. The only way to avoid it is to not do it.
Kevin Halverson
Well-known member
I really agree with mmost and his approach. I am sitting at a desk that has three different machines, 2 PCs and 1 SGI, each is optimized for a different set of tasks. Trying to make a 'one size fits all machine' is going to result in compromises. As low cost as hardware is now, its better to really fine tune it to the specific task.
- Banned
- #25
Hi Mike,
Fantastic posts here from you and great advice on
how to set up a pro facility. One box per job is certainly the
best way to go for PC's but I think the whole concept behind
apple's soft/hardware design is for one box to multitask.
Perhaps when Shake is reborn and SDI graphics cards are
included in new Macs they will achieve this with 2/4K DI.
I would love to buy Scratch/2K projection/SAN but like
a lot here they are out of my reach. I hope in the not too distant
future to be rescued by some Mighty Multi tasking Mac that can
save my poor hardworking Indie DI butt.
It's just a dream, in the meantime post facilities rental seems to
be the only way to go. They do have good coffee and pretty girls
in the foyer. It's not all bad.
Cheers Mezmo.
Fantastic posts here from you and great advice on
how to set up a pro facility. One box per job is certainly the
best way to go for PC's but I think the whole concept behind
apple's soft/hardware design is for one box to multitask.
Perhaps when Shake is reborn and SDI graphics cards are
included in new Macs they will achieve this with 2/4K DI.
I would love to buy Scratch/2K projection/SAN but like
a lot here they are out of my reach. I hope in the not too distant
future to be rescued by some Mighty Multi tasking Mac that can
save my poor hardworking Indie DI butt.
It's just a dream, in the meantime post facilities rental seems to
be the only way to go. They do have good coffee and pretty girls
in the foyer. It's not all bad.
Cheers Mezmo.
And a lot of talent sitting in the chairs. And an assurance that you're going to get what you're supposed to get and deliver what you're supposed to deliver, and all within a stated time frame. In the end, that's far more significant, and it's what you're paying for, regardless of the oft stated comments to the contrary.
But feel free to look and to enjoy the coffee ;-).
- Banned
- #27
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the reply and yes, point taken about talent in seats.
I would go to a post house every time for grading and final finishing
of a film. Although on our last film,because we are low budget Indie
clients we had to wait several months for the facility to get a compile
going on our project. Not complaining here, the price was great but
it was a very slow process. EDL troubles also didn't help but deliverables
are still dribbling out of this place four months after the final grade.
We are happy with film-out, the results are great, the 422 HD master
not so great, but that's another story.
The post workfow path was based on 1920x1080 SR Log tape and
seemed to work OK for the film-out, but I would have much rather turned up with my 140,000 frames on 5 disks/reels in 2kDPX already compiled
(maybe with handles) rough graded with some VFX stuff already completed.
This would save a f*****g lot of time and confusion.
I'm sure Luki will jump in here and offer me a basic Scratch system to do
this but at it's current price I can't go there and to be frank I don't want to.
I'm in the business of content production not post production.
We content producers need somthing like a "Scratch Lite" ported to OSX so
we can get this basic work done to save post production time/money and
play confidently with 2/4k DPX material in FCP. The company that provides this
will fill a large gap that exists at the moment and probably make some big
money in the process. I know there are Mac graphics card/slot issues.
I'm not looking to find ILM in a box here but the ability to take my 140,000
FCP compiled DPX frames in a pelican case filled with disks to any post house in
the world really turns me on.
Am I a dreamer/wanker?
Mezmo.
Thanks for the reply and yes, point taken about talent in seats.
I would go to a post house every time for grading and final finishing
of a film. Although on our last film,because we are low budget Indie
clients we had to wait several months for the facility to get a compile
going on our project. Not complaining here, the price was great but
it was a very slow process. EDL troubles also didn't help but deliverables
are still dribbling out of this place four months after the final grade.
We are happy with film-out, the results are great, the 422 HD master
not so great, but that's another story.
The post workfow path was based on 1920x1080 SR Log tape and
seemed to work OK for the film-out, but I would have much rather turned up with my 140,000 frames on 5 disks/reels in 2kDPX already compiled
(maybe with handles) rough graded with some VFX stuff already completed.
This would save a f*****g lot of time and confusion.
I'm sure Luki will jump in here and offer me a basic Scratch system to do
this but at it's current price I can't go there and to be frank I don't want to.
I'm in the business of content production not post production.
We content producers need somthing like a "Scratch Lite" ported to OSX so
we can get this basic work done to save post production time/money and
play confidently with 2/4k DPX material in FCP. The company that provides this
will fill a large gap that exists at the moment and probably make some big
money in the process. I know there are Mac graphics card/slot issues.
I'm not looking to find ILM in a box here but the ability to take my 140,000
FCP compiled DPX frames in a pelican case filled with disks to any post house in
the world really turns me on.
Am I a dreamer/wanker?
Mezmo.
Wanting is not the same as needing. You don't "need" this, you "want" it. Everything, however, has a price tag, both in monetary terms and in terms of time/complication/expertise needed. I "want" a Ferrari, but I don't "need" one, and I can't afford one. You're saying that you could conceivably save time or complication by doing a lot of this yourself, and that may well be the case. But you also need to be aware that if you take this on yourself, you'll need to be able to play back the resulting files in real time to make sure that there are no corrupted or missing frames - which means having some hefty, very fast storage and monitoring that will allow you to see the images large enough to spot problems. You'll also need to confirm that all of the editorial conforming is perfect. You'll also need to make sure that the files you generate are in the proper format for whatever you want to generate from them (and for that you need to know the various formats of all the deliverables you might be responsible for), and if you're going to do any color correction, you need a calibrated monitoring path so that what you are doing is indicative of what you're going to get on the final print. And, yes, you need to also know that post production is, quite frankly, far more about sound than it is about picture, so if you want the picture to work, you should be worrying far more about getting a good sound editing crew to really make it work.
What I'm saying is that if you want to take on more of the job, you must accept the responsibility that comes with that regarding quality control and enough knowledge of post production and delivery requirements that you don't create bigger problems than those you're trying to solve. And I'm saying that after having seen this happen far too many times recently. You've also got to spend some money, because editing and finishing are two different things. And yes, you need to forget about seeing Assimilate Scratch on a Mac. That's just not going to happen. And that comes from both Lucas and the people he works with/for.
As far as "making big money" by letting you work with DPX's in Final Cut, you might want to contact Robert Monaghan, the author of GlueTools, which does exactly that. It's a fine product, but I think Robert will be the first to tell you that there's no "big money" to be made in any of this, in part due to exactly what you're saying here: most people who want it can't (or don't want to) pay much for it. That's the somewhat sad truth.
On another note, I'm sorry to hear of your rather lengthy and questionable experience with whatever facility you worked. I can assure you that even on lower budget projects, that's not how you should be treated. Yes, scheduling flexibility is something that can be used to barter a reduction on the rate. But four months sounds pretty excessive, although I don't know what problems were encountered, what changes might have been made, or what monetary considerations were part of that scenario.. Having been involved in a number of these kind of projects, I think you need to look around at other vendors and check out your alternatives. Feel free to send me a private message if you like.
Lucas Wilson
REDuser Sponsor
To follow up Mike's comments...
You are not a dreamer (or a wanker
)But I think you have no idea how difficult it can be to do a 2K conform. Forget about 4K DPX. Just forget about it... really. You think that "compiling" 2K files is a fairly straightforward process. Unfortunately, it is not. There's an entire profession dedicated to "compiling" those frames - Online Editor. They are there for a reason - because it's a difficult process that needs all kinds of weird problem solving skills. About 80% of your conform will probably be fairly straightforward. It's that last 20% that will leave you pulling your hair out... and eventually going to a post facility.
You say you're in the business of content production, not post-production. Unless you *want* to get into the business of post-production, then resign yourself to going to post facilities and handing things over to people who are in the business of post-production.
Now... a software vendor that comes up with the "Auto Build Timeline" feature where you press a button and the conform magically appears... I agree with you - they will make a LOT of money.:matrix:
Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
P.S.: If you decide you DO want to go into post-production, I know a guy...
- Banned
- #30
For realtime 4k with uncompressed DPX, TIFF, Cineon®, TGA, BMP at up to RGB 16 bit, real-time effects in 16 bit and DCI mastering, dvs clipster might be an interesting system. (windows only)
www.dvs.de
Another nice (and inexpensive) 1080p / 2k finishing solution on mac would be speedgrade from iridias. (osx and windows).
They have also very nice 2k/4k playback system with 3D support, called framecycler (osx and windows)
www.iridias.com
After visiting IBC, i will post a full report on the 4k online solutions of filmlight, quantel, discreet, iridias, assimilate, scratch and adobe.
One question: Did anyone test out how good or bad Adobe CS3 handles 4K unter OSX? Under windows its working, but i would be interested to know how its performing under OSX.
www.dvs.de
Another nice (and inexpensive) 1080p / 2k finishing solution on mac would be speedgrade from iridias. (osx and windows).
They have also very nice 2k/4k playback system with 3D support, called framecycler (osx and windows)
www.iridias.com
After visiting IBC, i will post a full report on the 4k online solutions of filmlight, quantel, discreet, iridias, assimilate, scratch and adobe.
One question: Did anyone test out how good or bad Adobe CS3 handles 4K unter OSX? Under windows its working, but i would be interested to know how its performing under OSX.
Along with the one that comes up with the "make beautiful" button for color correction, the "make what the director wants" button for editorial, and the "make photoreal" button for CG renders.
Kevin Halverson
Well-known member
How about cut to the chase and just a 'make money' button?
- Banned
- #33
Hi Mike & Luki,
Sorry about using the "need" word, didn't know it
was such a touchy issue here on Reduser.net.
And I've already forgotten about 4K, hate that stuff.
Thanks Laguun for your info I'll look into Speedgrade
they have a rep here and I look forward to your post.
If you read my last post Mike I do use post facilities and I'm
not some nutter who want's to finish 4K in a Mac like HDV.
What I'm trying to prevent here is this "hand off" attitude by
editors and post houses. As a producer your stuck in the middle
and it's MY rather expensive problem. I'd like editors to become
more like online editors and take responsibilty for their work.
Make the buggers conform or partially conform the film instead
of just handing it off to the post house, crappy EDL and all.
This has happened to me on more than one occasion and post facilities
charge big time to fix it.
I hate the online offline thing and I won't let go of this 2K conform idea
even if I have to learn to do it myself, apparently you can drag DPX about
in Shake, a long and clunky job according to some. A better solution would
be good.
I will always go to a post facility for final grade,color management,burn
tests for film out,HD/SD legal deliverables and I'm not looking for any
magic buttons I'm just looking to reduce the many expensive stuff ups
between editor and the post house. I also want (not need) the option to
travel my film on disk for final finish to any post house on the planet.
These things I dream. Cheers Mezmo
Sorry about using the "need" word, didn't know it
was such a touchy issue here on Reduser.net.
And I've already forgotten about 4K, hate that stuff.
Thanks Laguun for your info I'll look into Speedgrade
they have a rep here and I look forward to your post.
If you read my last post Mike I do use post facilities and I'm
not some nutter who want's to finish 4K in a Mac like HDV.
What I'm trying to prevent here is this "hand off" attitude by
editors and post houses. As a producer your stuck in the middle
and it's MY rather expensive problem. I'd like editors to become
more like online editors and take responsibilty for their work.
Make the buggers conform or partially conform the film instead
of just handing it off to the post house, crappy EDL and all.
This has happened to me on more than one occasion and post facilities
charge big time to fix it.
I hate the online offline thing and I won't let go of this 2K conform idea
even if I have to learn to do it myself, apparently you can drag DPX about
in Shake, a long and clunky job according to some. A better solution would
be good.
I will always go to a post facility for final grade,color management,burn
tests for film out,HD/SD legal deliverables and I'm not looking for any
magic buttons I'm just looking to reduce the many expensive stuff ups
between editor and the post house. I also want (not need) the option to
travel my film on disk for final finish to any post house on the planet.
These things I dream. Cheers Mezmo
Lucas Wilson
REDuser Sponsor
<smart ass mode>
To paraphrase the old guy in the bank in Raising Arizona, "Well... young feller... what's it gonna be? If'n you learn conform, then you can't not go there, and if'n you go there, well... you're learning conform..."
Yes... a better solution would be good! Hmmm... I wonder who makes datacentric conform solutions at a fairly low price that easily deal with a feature's worth of DPX files and the conform problems that go along with that...:biggrin:
</smart ass mode>
Cheers,
Lucas Wilson
------------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
I hear you, but a more practical solution might be to carry the editor at least part of the way through the DI. Having either the editor - or, more commonly and often more usefully, the assistant editor - available during the conform usually answers whatever questions there are and makes for a much smoother process. Making the post company work in a vacuum is what runs up the charges. Providing the person with the answers keeps it under control. Most of the time when things get out of hand, it's because the editor and/or assistant editor have been let go and moved on to their next project. This was never the case when things were finished on film - the editor and assistant editor were always available during negative cutting, and the editor was usually involved in the answer print as well. However, just as it wasn't the editor's job to actually cut the negative, it's not their job to conform 2K files. It's just not their area of expertise. However, making sure the editor or assistant is available is the simplest way to make the process go smoother. Taking on the job yourself is likely to make it even more problematic.
What does a low budget RED indie film maker version of Scratch software/hardware cost?
I'm sure if you contact Lucas privately (instead of in an open posting here) he'll be happy to tell you.
WTF?
OMG - I ASKED FOR A PRODUCT PRICE IN PUBLIC. HOLY CRAP!!!!! WHAT WAS I THINKING??? Nobody does that for EVERY other product around here.
Scratch doesn't have a price range? Like... lowest cost version is $X but most people get $Y and if you want everything you get $DD.
Or how about - hardware prices change all the time so we do custom quotes... but generally you're going to be around $X.
Or - The Scratch software is $X but you'll need hardware that costs $Y. We may be able to integrate with what you've already got... let's talk.
What... do I need to fly out there and do a day of sales training?
Not directly from the manufacturer (unless it's Red, who operates this site), they don't. And as far as I'm concerned, that's fine, because when you post things on the Internet, they have a way of getting either unfairly challenged ("Cheapco will sell it to me for half that price! Why should I pay you more??") or wildly distorted ("That's the price of the software..." followed by "So I get 6 TB of storage for that price, right??"). Not to mention the simple notion that Red didn't set up this site to act as a free advertising forum for other manufacturers.
Lucas has been very open about this, and has mentioned repeatedly that if people here want to talk about Scratch specifics or pricing, they should contact him privately. Personally, I applaud him for that.
You know what - I just deleted 3 paragraphs because this is so silly it's not worth discussing. I realise this is your opinion and not Scratch's. No harm no foul on their part.