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Red Ownership desires

J

James Propes

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Hey guys, this is my first post and i apologize ahead of time for its length.

I am new to the red world, although my interest in it is a few years running. I have however ran across a few things that I have some questions and concerns about. Later this year (around july) I will have a budget to purchase a camera. I am coming from a Canon background but I am looking into getting into the 4k+ realm and canons (to me) are just not impressive. Not impressive for the price point at least. I have a few canon glasses and looking to expand my glasses into the Zeiss, but more likely Schneider realm. (I like Schneider over zeiss).

Here is my issues, I am wanting to buy a complete or nearly complete setup. Buying used is perfectly ok with me. I have done a lot of research over the last few months and currently am more confused then what I started at as. My budget will be between 10k-15k, 15k being a stretch and sleeping on the couch to avoid a angry wife.

Here are somethings I am looking for and what I have found.

I would like 4k raw capability. 60fps + , 12 + stop, 10 bit or better. I am wanting to shoot cinematic films.

The scarlet is nice but it seems (even used) it will exceed my 15k stretch.
Used Red Ones would work, but many forums try to deter away from them because of end of life.
Other options include the Blackmagic Ursa, Sony F700, and Kineraw mini.
I do not like the look of the GH4, and canon 4ks
My perfect world (unlimited budget) would be Arri Alexa, Red Dragons, and phantom Flexes... however this is not a perfect world.

I was told to wait until NAB 2015 to really make my choice because of price drops and new product, but I have learned not to rely on that over the last few years.

Given my likes and my limitations can you provide me with any insight that u might have. I am open to suggestions and maybe avenues I have not seen or read.
Thanks guys.
 
My 2 cents… $10-$15K will be a stretch for Red. Unless someone else here knows something I don't. If it were me I would hold out, if I could, for a Red. If that meant waiting a couple extra months to save up for it and try to get a Scarlet. But if you want 4K now the GH4 is a good bet. Internal 4K recording. If you pair it with and external recorder you can get 10-bit out.
Another option to consider would be the Sony A7S with the Atomos Shougun external monitor/recorder. You can get into that for around $6K or less. Battery life isn't great for both so stock up on plenty of batteries. But the images I've seen from it look great. But beware of the rolling shutter, so no filming action movies.

HOWEVER… If you go to the Red website and hover over the "Store" button then go down to "Red Armory" you can configure a Red there. I configured a very basic Scarlet and it totaled $15,165
Scarlet-X Brain
AL Canon Lens Mount
The cheaper 7" display
4-Pack of RedVolts
DSMC Travel Charger
DSMC Side Handle
1- 48GB Redmag
DSMC SSD Side Module
Red Station RedMag 1.8 USB 3.0 (reader)

Now that's a bare basic Scarlet package. But it's all brand new. And you can upgrade your batteries and media cards as you go. I would definitely upgrade the media card asap since 48Gb won't leave you a lot of space for recording. But at least it gets you foot in the Red door.
 
^^ Someone else please chime in if I'm missing something. I wrote this very early this morning. ^^
 
I think you need to double 15K to 30K. The camera brain itself is around 15K for an Epic MX. Then you need around 15K for all the gear around it like monitors and media.
 
Thank you for the reply.

I don't mind the GH4 in aspects of what it does, especially for the price. I just don't like its "video" look. It (imo) out proforms the canon c100 and c300, but thats speculative.

I the configuration is nice and about what I need, I do like doing slo-mo work, but I have never had a need to be past 60 fps. mainly why the scarlet is at a great price point. I do qualify for the educational discount ( I think about 10% off). It has point these cameras more in my reach. However 30K will not be attainable anytime soon.
 
If you want 4k/60p you'd need a Scarlet-Dragon or either flavour of Epic. Definitely not in the $10-15k range (even for just the brain, which isn't close to shootable). You could get a shootable R1mx kit for $10k, but again, it only does 60p at 3k (it's also insanely heavy and cumbersome compared to a DSMC, which if you're coming for DSLR will itself seem very heavy and cumbersome).

Ursa (which is even heavier than an R1) has 4k/80fps (with 120fps via firmware being rumoured), and is what? $6k shootable? That said, BM doesn't have the best track record and there are things you have to be mindful of when shooting (though nothing as extreme as DSLR video).

The other option, Sony, seems to be in a really good spot for your needs; particularly the FS7, which looks better on paper than MX (approaching Dragon), and can be had brand new for less than $10k (shootable!)... Your 10bit internal goes out the window but an external recorder gets 10-12bit (which can be had for an additional $1.5-2.5k). Plus it's like 14+ stops of DR, really, really great low-light, built-in ND, battery for days, super lightweight, XLRs, great ergonomics (but crap shoulder pad apparently)... It's actually a really good camera on paper (and comparatively inexpensive) and definitely worth investigating further given your needs/budget.

All that said, I'd definitely wait until NAB. RED could be like, "New FF35 Scarlet-DoubleDragon for $10k!" or something. If you have a shoot coming, rent either camera (the FS7 or the Scarlet-Dragon) you're interested in. Honestly, at ~$10k+, it'd be foolish not to test the cameras you're looking to buy. It's like Robin Wiliams in Good Will Hunting talking about the Sistine Chapel; you can read about it all you want, but you gotta see it, smell it, and touch it.
 
dude who cares if its EOL and what other people say...if you can lift it, tolerate the 2 minute boot times go for the red one. Someone I know just sold a body 5k with bunch of extras on it, well within your budget check fjs or westcoastcine or provideo with Barb, any reseller plus used section here...

if you want red, get the red. i wanted red since it was fixed lens 3k for 3k...next week i'll have a 110k kit including a new amira...things change, needs grow... idc if prosumer cameras shoot 4k, the video look, raw, its not the same. I'm in love with red and arri looks, and eventually when there is a will there is a way..ps i personally use financing like at Abelcine or credit card promotions, that kind of stuff can make it much easier to buy the right toys...for instance over half my amira is financed and payments really low, like 650 a month for 5 years, which is so much less then it will make in a month for that time period its really easy payment wise. just my 2 cents on how to expand on a budget, don't be limited by cash on hand...scarlet or scarlet dragon or red one, all great cameras all same codec, all with same film look.

i use cannons, but they are a PIA, this one shoots mxf this one shoots h264 this one shoots another codec, multi cam with them codec wise just sucks lol
 
If you are in college or an educator, they have an educational pricing. I got a brand new scarlet setup with most of the accessories I needed for 15k. Of course that didn't count glass.
 
Thanks ;)

I was seriously considering the R1 MX, mainly because my shooting formats would be between 2k and 4k raw. Essentially all of my work would be outputted as 1080p but production work and the great list of pros with raw footage is what I am looking for. Plus If I did want a video at 4k it is available to me. I have a huge concern about media though, is the R1 only compatible with Red SSD? Or is any SSD work? (its been about 3 years since I have actually held one.) Is there a external recording option, (atmos shogun 4k? )

Ursa is a good option IMO but a few shooters I know say they have horrible QC. Its heavy and of course CF fast cards are not my favorite medium.

I like sonys, I do.. I just don't like the file out put. But I will def look at those specs and see the options.

I use FCPX/motion and Red Giant mainly, though I do own Resolve and researching Fusion... Im a bit anti adobe, but thats more personal then professional.

The Camera looks I love are Arri, Red, and Phantom... my wallet hates me 24/7

When I first started shooting I bought a bunch of canon gear... it was the "thing to do" in my circle of film friends. I was never really impressed and for how production work goes into it, you'd think I was editing a feature film.
 
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r1 can shoot red SSDs, or CF cards...or red drive...latter can have vibration issues though and most people do not use them anymore. CF is cheap, short roll times, ssds seem expensive but the 1.8 ones are cheaper, esp used these days...much more affordable...plus a good DIT can keep you going all day on a few cards and some fast drives...raids beat more cards any day cost wise... so spend up on the drives/computer and it will reduce the card load needs...plus you can rent for large jobs... easy to network with other red guys in your area too, for spares/rentals/extra parts
 
any camera can use hdmi or hd SDI as well to shoot to an onboard recorder...but its not r3d then, likely prores or dnxhd depending what the recorder is set to... so yes it can be done, but no raw, burned in colors, its soft cuz u can't sharpen it in redcine (though you can with resolve on prores, so i find it less of an issue then some)...different strokes for different folks...i have now literally hundreds of days as a DIT on red shoots, i got ur back man PM anything you need or ask here and ill try to chirp in
 
I have a computer background myself so the concept of raid is very appealing to me. How is this done in the Red camera though, external I am assuming. If I could record to a Raid 0 this would be a god send and increase my buying power. This interests me greatly. I could purchase a tb SSD raid 0 for under 1500.
 
I think the red one def fits my needs. I just got some information on the battle tested red ones and I am very impressed.
 
what i meant with the raid comment is you can use like 3 red mags (or so) and a redmag reader with a computer with fast ports and fast external hard drives and you actually save money on red mags by buying a better computer or faster storage (therefore not needing so much expensive proprietary media). for instance i stayed after wrap like 45 mins + today cuz I used slow drives on set which I was provided, and lucky for them I wasn't on OT, but the producer was...they lost much more money in that 45 mins on OT for her then they would of buying a faster drive, its just the way it goes...

though the red dragon or red scarlet dragon can shoot direct to hard drives with the new broadcast module, but its out of the budget probably so not really relevant.. the red raids i talked about for red one are a red only made hard drive you put on the camera, which people loved for long time duration jobs, but people hated cuz of vibration issues, so id avoid that plus the CF cards or red raids are for R1 only anyway, not able to be used on DSMC camera.. CF has very short roll durations, 15 mins or so? so ssds can be more viable if you can afford the red mags..which aint so bad these days, i mean you buy a few for life, unlike film processing costs....so by that logic digital is cheap as hell man lol

the on board recorders still look like a red, but they are an hd only signal and the colors are burned it, no longer raw. 4444 prores can be robust though, for many uses, sometimes raw isn't necessary if you just get it in the can right at get go...or set up a look and shoot the look and encode the look later... many workflows in general but the good news is there is a strong community here of people who help each other, much more so i think then other camera sites. so we can help you out with the IT side of stuff here, i actually been doing a lot of set ups/workflows for post houses lately... and you can get a nice little set up for cheap...i do tons of red jobs with a laptop only, but my rocket x is what handles my encodes...thats why i skate by on such a small footprint, that thing is a beast for fast turn arounds...
 
One of my biggest concerns when making this kind of an investment is obsolescence. I am not one who likes to constantly sell off old equipment and replace it. So I like to buy into a system that can evolve. For that reason, I wouldn't go the R1 route, as nice of an image as it produces. As to a GH4 or Sony A7s or something similar, those are fine cameras but I'd only go that route knowing it could grow with me. If you think Black Magic or AJA is going to mature into something great, then at least they offer a line of cameras that you can grow with. But, IMO, they just aren't RED.

Personally, I stretched (never thought I'd spend $10K++ for a "video camera"), but the system has grown with me. Since buying my Scarlet 3 years ago, I have spent countless thousands on additional hardware and peripherals but I don't feel I have wasted a dime. I can still get what I paid for it in a trade-in for an Epic and all my support equipment and modules will still work. And, as it currently stands, I can even still move up to Dragon. How great is that.

If you really want to play in the RED world, I'd re-think your budget and find a way into a Scarlet; you'll get 85% of your needs met and you can build from there. IMO, everything else is just a warm-up.

Good luck making a difficult decision!
 
I think if you're serious about making money from filmmaking, increase your budget, invest in a better setup, limit your other expenses and go hard at making that money back.
I wouldn't let my wife tell me how to spend my money, but that's just me, lol.
 
James, it seems to me that you have decided that RED is the look you want (Alexa and Phantom being out of your price range). So therefore it comes down to which RED camera delivers you everything you need for a price point that doesn't hurt your wallet. If you are looking to make films as an independent filmmaker who isn't looking to also rent the camera out or do commercial DP work, I think the options are broader. We have seen complete Red One MX packages go for less than $10K including SSD module and SSD mags. Is the camera obsolete? It's no longer being sold, yes. Does it make it obsolete? That depends on what you think of the footage. If it looks good to your eyes, then to me it's not obsolete. The other considerations are:
- Size. Are you someone that likes to shoot handheld all day long? The Red One will probably be a tough choice then. However if you like to put the camera on sticks, dollies, jibs, etc then weight is not really an issue, especially if you work with small crews that can assist with the camera setup. I've shot 12 hour days handheld with the Red One. It wasn't fun but I got what I needed. There are things like Easy Rigs to help with the weight.
- Boot up time. Do you like to be able to turn on a camera and have it ready to go instantly. Red One is not a good choice. However if you are doing narrative films where waiting a minute for the camera to boot up is not a bug deal, the Red One is fine. You can also get dual battery plates so you can hot swap batteries without shutting camera down.
-Image quality. Red One has a great image but RED has made strides in IQ with Dragon. If the Dragon image is what you are after, Red One will obviously fall short. However, if it delivers the IQ you need, then maybe it's a great fit at a price point you feel comfortable with.
-Support. I would contact RED and see what their support for the Red One will be for the next year or two. You want to make sure you can still get it serviced as that is one of the risks of an end of life camera. As long as Red has parts and is able to support it, I don't see it as big a risk as others do. Red One is pretty solid.
- Some advantages or interesting comparisons to Epic/Scarlet. The Red One seems to need less blackshading. You should always check it prior to filming but I find I do less than the other cameras. I like that everything is built into the Red One. Most shoots I do with it will need the SDI outputs and full audio capabilities. No module needed. I get three SDI outputs, HDMI, TC, audio out, etc all on the body. The fan can be set to be very quiet with no penalties on Red One. The fans have improved on Epic/Scarlet so this is less of an issue than it used to be but never had an issue on Red One. Although the Red Drives are a bit riskier because they have spinning hard drives in them, for interviews where camera is on sticks, I can mount one in an ET shock mount and record for hours while also having the SSD module for everything else. Gives you some flexibility.

If money was no object, I would say go Epic Dragon. It gives you an incredibly powerful camera that will cover almost all of your narrative filmmaking needs. However, if you'd like to get into the world of RED and you want to stay under the $10K mark for a complete package, I still think Red One is an excellent choice assuming it is still supported by RED.

Also, the other question to ask is are your films ready to be made? In other words, will you put the camera to use immediately or do you have projects that will be in development for a while. If it's the latter, then I would consider holding off until you are closer to being ready for production. Things can change in a a matter of months. Price drops could occur on the Epic/Scarlet lines. But if you would put the camera to use immediately and would shoot with it all of the time, I'd consider finding a great R1 package now.
 
Wow guys an incredible amount of information and questions. One of the best and honest forums I have ever been on. Ill try to address everything I can, (sorry if I skip anything).

My filming needs ATM are quite low. Although professionally I do film and photograph, this particular purchase/s would be completely independent of my job. I started off as a hardware tech then moved into software (linux to be exact) that led to me working for a production company where I learned a lot of the skills and trade. That particular company went under and developed into another one. In which i was migrated over too, and blah blah blah... here we are today.

Pretty much my films are not ready to be made today, so there is no "rush". I know more then anything (with any camera) I need tons of practice. I have 5 beat sheets and two scripts written, however they are not fine tuned nor up to what I would call "my standards" for filming. However one of them is very close and could easily be shot later this year. I tend to take my time with things, which doesn't not bold well for quick production work. So I will be sticking to the cinematic format, short films and later (hopefully) full length.

I know that individual red's have a unique view, but the over all red film look is very pleasing to my eye. I spent all weekend watching short films shot on red one and was very impressed by it. I also watched short films on ursa and kineraw, they were also very impressive, but my eye liked the red one better. Now that being said I also like the dragon and if I had to choose between the two Id pick the dragon, but if I had 50k I wouldn't really be worried about it. Most of my films are "dark" in nature, my story lines are as well. Not that I would ever do a romantic comedy or etc... I tend to lean towards the darker aesthetic.

Another reason why I am trying to get the most "bang for the buck" is that I am limited on funs this year. My wife is due in May with our first born, so I am not committing any more money then I have too, (future purchases would have more leeway).

I got a letter from Red saying the Red One could be equipped with the 1.8 SSD, which pretty much solves a lot of fears on my part. The red SSD is far cheaper then the CF Fast 2.0 cards that the URSA needs.
Speaking of how much footage can the 240gb SSD hold on redcode raw?
(which I assume the reduced raw, is raw)... Ursa 256gb can hold 14 mins of cinema dng raw.

Size doesn't concern me as much being that it is half the weight of the Ursa, so while it is heavy, its certainly not that heavy. (comparatively). I also know that this isn't going to be my last camera. I will eventually buy a scarlet or dragon and purchase more products over the years. I think it fit my needs for now and will be a great B camera for later.

I haven't completely jumped on the RED van as of right now, and still shopping to become a informed consumer. However with the battle tested packages being well with in my price range, it is certainly on the top of my list. I have my own lights atm and seriously considering moving to a LED setup, portability is a huge selling point for me. I also already own a few h4n zooms and booms (just wanted to say that). So audio is not as necessary. I have a few tripods that can handle the weight, and one slider, but will have to purchase more equipment to work with the red (but I assume that with any camera).

How are Red's pl mount glasses? the price seems great to me compared to the brands I am use too.

Give my needs/wants what do you guys think?

@ Steve
I tend to "try" not to think of things obsolete, I know a few cinematographers that swear by cameras/glass that havnt been made in like 40 years... although that is film not digital. The info you provided is quite paramount to my lines of thinking. :)
 
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