RED or Sony

[jonathan murphy]

I have owned a red one ..then scarlet ...then epic.. and finally epic dragon for some time now and its all I know. I love the camera but I have some big annoyances for the type of shooting I do.
1. Its heavy. (even when I get it down really small)
2. boot up time takes a while
3. Its louder than I like even with the new fan.
4. Ale carte concept of red is running my bank account dry.

I really need more than one camera for a tv show I am working on and was thinking of either keeping my epic dragon and getting 2 ravens or selling all my RED stuff and trying out SONY. I know they have some big things on the horizon this year and I love how:

1. When you buy something it comes with everything you need.
2. You can match slog 3 from their f55 all the way to their A7 series cameras.

By no means have I made up my mind. Was hoping someone here has used both. Is it a good idea? Should I stick with RED? Thoughts? Let me clarify that I am at my max price wise with the red epic dragon and the 15k upgrade to the weapon is just too much. The thought of getting more sony cameras by selling my Red is tempting but I don't want to make a huge mistake. This decision mostly comes down to money. Any thoughts would help. Thanks!

 

[Steve Sherrick]

What kind of show? What kind of post schedules and what are the budgets like? how far do you push your grades? What is your primary lens package?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

The Red Epic and Weapon are pretty small for a digital cinema camera -- the Sony cameras are bigger unless you are talking about using a still camera like a Sony A7S to shoot video on. With a 35mm sensor, there are physical limits to how small your lenses are going to be, especially if you want cinema lenses with a long rotation for focusing with lots of distance markings.

 

[jonathan murphy]

Reality but I do all kinds of shooting as well. 2 weeks per episode is allotted for the edit. I like the ability to push my grades as I work heavily in resolve. Leica r set and several L Canon zooms

 

[jonathan murphy]

I also want to know how Sony raw is.

 

[Marc Wielage]

If your budget is limited but you're just shooting for broadcast, I think the best buy would be a couple of Sony PMW-F5's. They're very close to the (much more costly) F55, they'll still do 4K, and they've got a wide range of accessories and lenses. Solid workflow, very reliable cameras. Sony SLog is actually very good to work with in color -- I've had no problems with it in Resolve.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Yes, but again, if weight is the issue, I think the Red Weapon is 3.3 lbs versus the Sony F5's 4.8 lbs (the Canon C300 is about the same weight as the Red Weapon.) This is why I'm surprised something thinks of the Red cameras as heavy, unless they are comparing them to still cameras and plastic prosumer cameras with small sensors and lenses. Compared to other digital cinema cameras or film cameras, the Red Weapon is small and light.

Now in terms of handholding, a lot of these new cameras are too heavy for holding by the wrist for very long; if you plan on handholding for long periods, a shoulder-mount rig would be more comfortable.

And if you want actual raw recording, most of these other cameras -- if they have a raw option at all -- require a separate raw recording module or an onboard monitor-recorder device. Which again, adds even more weight.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Also Sony RAW is very mildy compressed, and the 4K raw file sizes are INSANE.

I know of one TV shoot that recorded on 3-4 Sony F55 cams all day...in RAW 4K...and shot almost 20TB!!!!

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

Red's a digital Cinema Camera, similar to an Alexa.

Sony/Panasonic are ENG Rigs, it's about that simple. Not sure SLog3 is perfect in anyway, but the files are small and easy to edit.

Big difference between the Red Epic(which is higher quality) and the Sony and Canon's is going to be in-camera noise reduction. A Sony FS7 has a base ISO of 2000 and anything shot in SLog3 is lock into that ISO, like Red you can expose for and add metadata to color at a lower base ISO, but it's base is 2000iso. With a MetaBones SpeedBooster, you get close to a FFrame image and an extra stop of light(3200iso)... all pluses for ENG work.

Red Epic Dragon -- the image is just sexy, similar to a Alexa with Cookes... it just looks different and super sharp. You need to light a scene and can't record internal audio, but the image is tits... and you get highspeed. Epic/Weapon are build for Cinema/Narrative work.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Also Sony RAW is very mildy compressed, and the 4K raw file sizes are INSANE. I know of one TV shoot that recorded on 3-4 Sony F55 cams all day...in RAW 4K...and shot almost 20TB!!!!

An hour of 4K XAVC from an F55 is about 100GB, which is not outrageously awful. If I do my math correctly, it's roughly the same as Red Epic 8:1 (115GB).

http://www.xavc-info.org/xavc/share/data/XAVC_SpecificationOverview_Rev2_2.pdf

If you shoot 6 hours of footage per day on three cameras, then I only count about 2.5TB. It's not that overwhelming if they have good data management and can work with multiple computers and a rotating shift of people 24/7. Backups and transcodes are the real issue.

Arriraw is actually a lot bigger (and less compressed), roughly 785GB for an hour of 3K. I haven't added up the amount of storage for Arriraw 6K, but it's gotta be pretty massive.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Happy new year Marc,

He was actually speaking of Sony Raw not Xavc. Xavc is actually a pretty good codec. I would think twice before recording Sony's huge Raw files. It's also one of the reasons why I don't shoot Alexa arriraw.

Pat

 

[Ben Scott]

Just to add Slog2 on the A7s is pretty heavily green tinted compared to the F5/FS7 and requires as much matching as 2 cams from different manufacturers.

 

[Bill Totolo]

From what I gather, a lot of reality is shot on Sony (F55/F5) and Canon cameras (C300). Much seems to be migrating over to FS7 even.
If it's a low budget show then you'll bake in the look, if they've got a budget then SLog will be helpful.

If there are reality shows shooting on Reds can anyone provide titles? I'd actually watch an episode to see what it looks like.

Thanks,

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Again, other than a still camera like the Sony A7S, all of those cameras are just as heavy or heavier than the Red Weapon -- the Sony FS7 is a pound heavier and if you want to record raw you'd need the additional XDCA-FS-7 unit plus an onboard recorder like the Odyssey 7Q, so even more weight.

 

[Nick Morrison]

An hour of 4K XAVC from an F55 is about 100GB, which is not outrageously awful. If I do my math correctly, it's roughly the same as Red Epic 8:1 (115GB).

http://www.xavc-info.org/xavc/share/data/XAVC_SpecificationOverview_Rev2_2.pdf

If you shoot 6 hours of footage per day on three cameras, then I only count about 2.5TB. It's not that overwhelming if they have good data management and can work with multiple computers and a rotating shift of people 24/7. Backups and transcodes are the real issue.

Arriraw is actually a lot bigger (and less compressed), roughly 785GB for an hour of 3K. I haven't added up the amount of storage for Arriraw 6K, but it's gotta be pretty massive.

Yes, but thats not RAW.

For RAW, 512gigs of Sony F55 @ 4K 23.98 = 53mins.

See documentation here:
http://www.cineverse.net/images/SONY_F55_and_F5_RECORD_DATA_RATES_and_TIME.pdf

At those rates, a SONY F55...shooting 4K RAW @ 23.98...shoots 580Ggigs an hour.

To shoot your 3 camera scenario on Sony F55s RAW, the data rates would be:

3 Cameras x 6hrs x 580/hr = 10.4 TERABYTES!!

Which is A LOT.

 

[Nick Morrison]

From what I gather, a lot of reality is shot on Sony (F55/F5) and Canon cameras (C300). Much seems to be migrating over to FS7 even.
If it's a low budget show then you'll bake in the look, if they've got a budget then SLog will be helpful.

If there are reality shows shooting on Reds can anyone provide titles? I'd actually watch an episode to see what it looks like.

Thanks,

I think now that DSMC2 REDS can shoot Prores (and soon DNX) internally...well start to see more reality shot on RED.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Yes, but thats not RAW. For RAW, 512gigs of Sony F55 @ 4K 23.98 = 53mins.

There's nothing I can find on Sony Raw in the manual for the F5 that I can see. If you have a Sony doc on it, I'd love to read it. 1GB per minute sounds about right. (Ah, just saw that you have to add the external AXS-R5 recorder in order to use Raw. Got it. But it's not possible within the camera itself.)

When the F65 was introduced about 4-5 years ago, they told me it would be almost 1TB per hour for 4K. Half that is still an improvement. I continue to believe that Raw isn't as important as a lot of people think it is, provided the DMin / DMax settings for the Log information and the color temperature is set correctly. But that's a big "if."

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

When the F65 was introduced about 4-5 years ago, they told me it would be almost 1TB per hour for 4K. Half that is still an improvement.

That would make sense since the F65 has twice as many photosites as the F5/F55.

Also, RED seems like a bad match for reality compared to Sony's partly because of ergonomics/control and power consumption among other things. In my experience shooting some reality and documentary on RED and Sony, on RED (epic/scarlet) the buttons are never really in the right place for quick changes on the fly and a lot of the adjustments you might expect to make in reality work (change wb/gain while rolling etc.) isn't available on RED and the sensitivity is lacking for some run-and-gun style work, plus for longer shooting the media and battery changes are certainly much more frequent than on Sonys (F5/FS7/FS700). But you can get spoiled on Sony cameras being able to shoot until lunch without battery or media changes... Also, RED is great for narrative where each take is planned and relatively short and you have more time and resources for post and lower shooting ratios but can be tough for lower budget reality or documentary since I tend to see people compromising image characteristics for workflow concerns: 6k has the best image quality, but 4k has more favorable datarates and ease of processing in post. It could be argued that all the resolution and compression options on RED are a great benefit, but things do seem simpler on small jobs with Sony since you just always shoot with the same sensor area and resolution and there is really only one or two codec options and that is always quite a clear decision.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Yes, but again, if weight is the issue, I think the Red Weapon is 3.3 lbs versus the Sony F5's 4.8 lbs (the Canon C300 is about the same weight as the Red Weapon.) This is why I'm surprised something thinks of the Red cameras as heavy, unless they are comparing them to still cameras and plastic prosumer cameras with small sensors and lenses. Compared to other digital cinema cameras or film cameras, the Red Weapon is small and light.

I believe you are thinking of the Weapon Carbon, but the OP mentions weapon being out of his price range let alone weapon carbon... His Epic Dragon is listed at 5lbs for brain only, add side ssd, lens mount, side handle, lcd, battery module or rigging, plus 2-3x the battery weight compared to sony given 2-3x the power consumption. And RED uses a lot of metal in their accessories where Sony often uses plastic. I could easily see a fairly small reality-ready Epic Dragon rig weighing about twice as much as a similarly outfitted Sony FS7, for example.

In the end I think a lot of it probably comes down to the OP's needs. What is his preferred sensor size? How important is the best image quality vs the most comfortable ergonomics/workflow? I think it might be an unnecessary burden to shoot reality work in Sony RAW, though, and probably somewhat less so in RED Dragon RAW, but most likely 4k XAVC is the simplest if not the most flexible.

I like to think I'm pretty technically proficient and a strong camera operator but whenever I am shooting on smaller projects with RED vs Sony I do find there are more slowdowns and inconveniences in terms of building camera, choosing formats, operating the camera without additional crew assistance or for long takes, wrangling data, etc. But I imagine a lot of that might be something that A. is worth it for the bump in image quality and B. can be improved upon with a carefully thought out camera package on certain projects.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

In my opinion Red cameras are not a great match for reality TV. Just wrapped on Road to the Winter Classic and we were using F55s. I think in that environment with quick turnarounds it was the right choice. That's not to say it would be impossible to use Red cams but sometimes IQ is only a part of the equation. Shorter boot times, RGB codecs, longer battery life, increased sensitivity, and internal ND could certainly make Red viable for that genre in the future.