RED or Sony

[Patrick Tresch]

Noah, I've been shooting great docus feature film on Epic lost in the Amazon without easy access to power and all went well. I didn't have any cam ass nor dit.

It's not the camera choice but the way you shoot it that is the problem today.

Pat

 

[Ben Scott]

Again, other than a still camera like the Sony A7S, all of those cameras are just as heavy or heavier than the Red Weapon -- the Sony FS7 is a pound heavier and if you want to record raw you'd need the additional XDCA-FS-7 unit plus an onboard recorder like the Odyssey 7Q, so even more weight.

And trust me, you realllly don't want to do this. The FS7 Raw is horrendous and far worse quality than recording internal XVAC-I. I've sold all mine off.

 

[Gene Sung]

I'm getting a Scarlet-W for higher end projects, but I do own an FS7 for 1 year and it's quite possibly the best doc / run+gun camera ever made. I think with a Red on high end and the FS7 on lower end jobs, you have the ultimate combo.

FS7
• Great ergonomics. I mainly use it in the out-of-box config for doc work. No extra rigging needed, although the Zacuto Loupe is better than stock and I replaced the 90 degree bracket ($20). From cradling to shoulder, it's awesome. Some people rig the crap out of it, but for me, I just use it as it as it works great. I do have a rig with follow focus, rods, etc... for more scripted stuff, but for R&G it works great bare bones.
• Nice image - CineEI and LC709a = nice cinematic look and new Sony color science is much better than old / S-Log 2. Image is basically the same as F55
• Several focal length options per lens - 1) Super 35mm 2) Speed Booster = 5D Full Frame look and 3) soon-ish firmware release will have a 2x Super 16mm crop
• Nice compressed codec allows for quick downloads and easy editing.
• Built in NDs
• Strong lowlight - ISO 2000 base and add Speed Booster for 1 extra stop if needed.
• XLRs for audio
• It's light. Body = 4 pounds and has small batteries and requires very little / if any rigging. Batteries last for ever and are much smaller than V-Mount so it's probably lighter than a Red.
• Built-in NDs. Work super fast.
• Good compressed codec - 10-bit 422
• Much more versatile than C300 Mark II - HD Full scan up to 180fps. 4K up to 60fps (C300 II is only HD at 60fps and sever crop at 120fps)
• Cheap

Basically, you can work really fast on an FS7, good compressed codec that downloads super fast.

It's a different camera than Red (more high end jobs). If you can have both like I will, you have all the bases covered.

Edit: Also, the menu isn't as bad as people make it out to be. You can customize it so with a push of a button, all the settings your need are at the top. Kind of a mess at first, but spend a little time and customize it and it's simple.

 

[Ben Scott]

Agree completely

FS7 gets so much right (except raw) for a lot of work, and then you have Red for when image quality is the primary factor.

 

[Mike P.]

For shoulder mount, the FS7 rigged to shoot is substantially lighter than Epic/Scarlet rigged to shoot (F5/F55 not so much). I'm not even sure about the actual numbers, but the FS7 just *feels* like half the weight for the equivalent power/record time (granted XAVC not compressed raw). I can't imagine Weapon/Scarlet-W/Raven being as light (when rigged to shoot) as an FS7 when the brain weight of DSMC2 is only ~1.5lbs lighter than DSMC1 (in other words, the brain isn't what weighs a RED rig down) It's one of those specs vs. real-world things; on paper, they look to be competitive (5lbs for Epic/Scarlet vs. 4lbs for FS7 vs. 3.5lbs for Raven/DSMC2), but in practice the modules, battery requirements, media, ND/mattebox, rails, cage, etc. etc. all end up making the FS7 so much lighter during operation...

Being that you said this is coming down to price, the difference is quite substantial. You could sell your Epic-Dragon and buy get two decent FS7 packages, which is very appealing if you need two cameras (probably not worth going FS7 + A7series, as that seems like an unnecessary additional layer of gack and rigging and post-inconsistencies for not much less money... Plus having two similar set ups means you'll likely have rig redundancy).

Are you running mini-mags already on your Epic (as that would help keep prices down and DIT uniform if you opted for Raven)? Certainly sounds like spending $15k merely to upgrade one Epic-D to one Weapon is foolhardy; you could get a Scarlet-W/dualravens for less than that... Hell, you could probably get 2x barebones used FS7s for $15k (and keep your Epic-D)...

Definitely sounds like you could answer a lot of your questions/concerns by going to a store/rentalshop and checking out an FS7... Put it on your shoulder rigged to shoot, get some footage that you've shot personally, and then push it around in post to see if you actually like it (the footage and Sony's post workflow).

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

I agree that in this particular case 2x Sony F5's shooting XAVC are probably the most appropriate tool. Sony RAW is a heavy codec and not well-suited for run and gun style shooting where you could be rolling the cameras for hours on end. As for camera weight, I think the difference is that the F5/55 is meant to sit on the shoulder ENG style, whereas it sounds like the OP is holding his Epic out in front of his body with a side handle. In that scenario, the F5 is much easier to handhold all day. Definitely go for the larger LCD viewfinder, not the OLED version, you can flip the loupe up and use it as a little monitor for interviews or high/low angle shots.

 

[Mike P.]

I'm curious to know why people are suggesting the F5 over the (substantially cheaper) FS7? What does the F5 have that makes it far & away better than the FS7?

 

[Ben Scott]

It has the SR codec.

 

[Bob Gundu]

I shoot everything using an Easyrig now so weight really becomes irrelevant. Not only can you go all day with less fatigue, I find myself getting more mid level shots.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Happy new year Marc,

He was actually speaking of Sony Raw not Xavc. Xavc is actually a pretty good codec. I would think twice before recording Sony's huge Raw files. It's also one of the reasons why I don't shoot Alexa arriraw.

Pat

Arriraw ar 75 fps gives Dragon a run for it's money if your shooting green screen. Higher compression required for Dragon at higher speeds is not pretty.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Arriraw ar 75 fps gives Dragon a run for it's money if your shooting green screen. Higher compression required for Dragon at higher speeds is not pretty.

Hello Stephen,

Ok that could be one application. But on the Epic Dragon (not Weapon) compression 13:1 at 75 fps 5.5k 2:1 lit for STO 250 iso could be a good contender VS arriraw 2.8k? I never did that test. I never had to. I would be glad to hear your findings.

Pat

 

[Stephen Williams]

Hello Stephen,

Ok that could be one application. But on the Epic Dragon (not Weapon) compression 13:1 at 75 fps 5.5k 2:1 lit for STO 250 iso could be a good contender VS arriraw 2.8k? I never did that test. I never had to. I would be glad to hear your findings.

Pat

The test was done 23 months ago, before 5.5k was an option. 4k gave a better result over 5k due to lower compression. At the time we were told Dragon to have a 2000 iso starting point. We reckoned 320 iso with the then fixed LL installed was the way to go. As you know dark sides of a face compressed on a green screen are not pretty. 25 fps 6k 4:1 compressed Dragon beat Arriraw by a long way, very different story at 75 fps where Arri is still uncompressed.

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

I'm curious to know why people are suggesting the F5 over the (substantially cheaper) FS7? What does the F5 have that makes it far & away better than the FS7?

A side panel and dedicated buttons on the body with immediate access to EI/WB/Shutter/fps/LUTs/audio etc. Very important when you need to move quickly. Rock solid, quick-change adaptable mount for PL/EF that doesn't automatically require lens support. SR codec for green screen. Much better form factor for handheld shooting with cine lenses (more back weight). Better and more comfortable viewfinder options. Simpler R5 raw module implementation. Swappable OLPFs.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Thanks Stephen.

Pat

 

[Joachim Hoge]

We have a Dragon, MX and FS7. I bought the FS7 for broadcast work with quick turnaround. 50% of the time I use FS7 we record sound straight to the camera. I find the FS7 lends itself better to this kind of work (1080). It's a great camera for the price and easy to make an ROI.
I would go for the FS7.
We started out with the F55, but the producers were happy to move to the cheaper FS7.
But every production is different as is every region. The FS7 is catching on here and that makes it easy to bring along to productions (I mostly rent my camera gear with myself).
Im hoping the Raven and new Scarlet can open more doors to the broadcast world over here (im betting on it), but those cameras don't exist yet and I need a camera this week;-)

 

[Mike P.]

A side panel and dedicated buttons on the body with immediate access to EI/WB/Shutter/fps/LUTs/audio etc. Very important when you need to move quickly. Rock solid, quick-change adaptable mount for PL/EF that doesn't automatically require lens support. SR codec for green screen. Much better form factor for handheld shooting with cine lenses (more back weight). Better and more comfortable viewfinder options. Simpler R5 raw module implementation. Swappable OLPFs.

Very succinct. Thanks!

 

[Jiri Vrozina]

yes yes,
on a paper Sonys have it all except in daylight they all look ..... even if you grade shit out of it.
Except for F65.
Fs7 is 4 year old industrial sensor from fs700.
Where Sony FS7, F5, F55 is the best, is their Range of Codecs.
Please give me Arri mini, Pana Varicam or new c300 mk2 anyday.
Amen

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

A side panel and dedicated buttons on the body with immediate access to EI/WB/Shutter/fps/LUTs/audio etc. Very important when you need to move quickly. Rock solid, quick-change adaptable mount for PL/EF that doesn't automatically require lens support. SR codec for green screen. Much better form factor for handheld shooting with cine lenses (more back weight). Better and more comfortable viewfinder options. Simpler R5 raw module implementation. Swappable OLPFs.

With regards to the run n' gun mentioned usage - while F5/55 are very good cameras I wouldn't suggest those for all day handheld. Not a comfortable shoulder pad and one cable connector is on the smart side and annoying plus its cabling in general can easily catch and yank to something in these scenarios.

FS7 is lighter and in my impression more adequately designed for longer handheld shooting. I'd say F5/55 are workhorse cameras designed for TV series and at home on sticks, with occasional departures to the shoulder.

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

yes yes,
on a paper Sonys have it all except in daylight they all look ..... even if you grade shit out of it.
Except for F65.

That has not been my experience at all. I've found it incredibly easy to get great looking footage out of the F5 with one LUT and primaries. But then, there are very few cameras that I think can't be made to look good with the right lighting and grip package. I mean, you've got to light, expose, and frame well in the first place. Beyond a certain point, I think it's more about ease of use for the given scenario than IQ.

 

[Jiri Vrozina]

That has not been my experience at all. I've found it incredibly easy to get great looking footage out of the F5 with one LUT and primaries. But then, there are very few cameras that I think can't be made to look good with the right lighting and grip package. I mean, you've got to light, expose, and frame well in the first place. Beyond a certain point, I think it's more about ease of use for the given scenario than IQ.

Interesting....