RED or Film School?

[William Wedig]

That's a big question that really requires more info on the person and/or situation that you're in. I'd say 99% chance, you should probably go to school. But that's just me, I'm pretty biased. The road I chose worked out for me, but that's me.

I graduated from the School of Visual Arts in NYC and it was well worth it, if for nothing else to constant access to equipment (cameras, lighting and post facilities). Other things were great also: making those connections with other students and teachers, being forced to read books on filmmakers or study film history, not to mention the fact that you also get other general knowledge about great literature and art that you could only get from being forced to in a class (anybody else on this board has read 22 Shakespeare plays in less than 20 weeks?).

Also, in my time there the access to equipment allowed me to shoot 2 features and about a half dozen shorts which otherwise wouldn't have gotten made if I didn't go to school. The only reason that was possible was because of the people I knew from school and the fact that equipment rental was free (besides the camera, but if I had owned that, I would still be without talent, crew and lighting/grip).

People will say it doesn't matter, that you can learn without it and that's totally true. I know lots who have and totally talented and work constantly and have great work. But for me, I'd say I'm a better filmmaker and much more mature person having gained all the experience and knowledge that I did from getting a Bachelor's. It's a great place to start and if it doesn't work out, you can always drop out and buy your camera then.

Also, get on set (not just on film student shoots) as often as you can. You learn more tech stuff that way. School is where you get the theory. You'll need both to actually make good work.

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Talent or gear?

Talent or gear?

Hi all,

I have not read all the thread, but I'm sure I'll be supported in this.

I totally resent the fact of degrading the art of filmaking these past years have suffered. And believing that one can become a filmaker just because he has a camera, is the most ridiculous thing ever.

It's like believing one can become a singer by buying a piano. How about becoming DeNiro instead of going to acting school?

Buying a piano instead of getting music classes?! Is this the is question? Who will teach you? What the hell do you know about music, playing, writing, reading music sheets, singing, placing your voice, breathing???

Puh-lease!

Although a camera, like a guitar, can be an interesting gear for creation, learning and experimentation, there have been people there before that crafted an art, that instigated langages, developped techniques and that have, above all transcended it into some of the most intelligent sensations and emotions we all have lived, I doubt this happened out of pride and because they had nothing else to express than equipment ownership. The "camera" didn't do the movies...

To own is to afford. Education has no price. The benefits from learning from experienced people, the key individuals that will give you the necessary revelations to discover yourself and expand your potential into a clever artist, thus opening your mind and the one of others, is the core of fabricating one's soul that will touch others.

Wheter it's artistic vision, or commercial entertainment, don't take your audience for idiots. To believe you can be Picasso cause you got brushes, is taking everyone for idiots, and yourself in the process.

There's miracles, sheer talent, or plain luck. But what do you want to bet on?

Bet on yourself, on your future, on your determination. I always have respect for effort and determination. Not for prestige.

This is not personnal. It's about something I love, a carreer most of us conduct under passion and determination, wheter we succeed or not. Love films, make films, learn films. Learn as you make.

Don't let filmaking be some arrogant bingo chip call. And wearing a tuxedo never made anyone be James Bond...

Sorry if I hurt anyones feelings, but that's filmaking too... Live with it!

 

[Tom Lowe]

Lol this almost seems to be a well-designed trolling job. The guy asks the perfect question, with almost no details, then sits back and watches....

My answer would probably be: Put that money in the bank and work on a few movies. Start out PA'ing, gripping, whatever, and see if you like the business. Then you can decide the best road to take.

 

[Nathan Garofalos]

Okay, what if you decide to go to film school but have a big choice to make. I have to decide which film school I'll go to out of USC, Chapman, and LMU. Those are my top choices, yet I'm still waiting to hear back from a few of them. Where would you go? I have never thought of not going to college and AM going to go. I just can't decide where.

Also, why do film schools only allow you to use their equipment on a projects they assign. Its lame, Ill be taking and XL2, Scarlet (if I can buy one at NAB) and my own lighting kit to use only because the school's wont allow you to shoot on film when it is available. I wouldn't mind paying for film stock to use, or a lottery/drawing situation to shoot on a RED or si-2k, but when there are hvx200's they loan out, and only let you use them on assigned projects, it puts students in a situation where the kids with the best cameras are working on the best projects getting the most experience.

 

[JasonAvalos]

As a graduating film student I can say it depends what you think you need to learn. I for instance have never been a computer monkey, but have a true love and instinct for storytelling. so the time I spent with teachers teaching me FINAL CUT,AVID,SHAKE,MAYA, AND PROTOOLS for sound is invaluable! and of course you get into theory too, which i think anyone can do outside of school with all the books and commentary, and events around. I am a Red owner now and it is a serious big boy camera, so if your not a techie at all then either get some some software and teach yourself or maybe just take some j.c classes santa monica has some pretty good ones.

 

[Greg David]

How you deal with toxic people is the key. Even though many people will never admit it they secretly do not want to see others succeed (especially in the same business they are in). Keep this in mind when asking others what you should do with your time and money.

Any human who has ambition, is self reliant, and can tune out the toxic people will out perform the rest of the herd.

When I was in college back in the 90's I took a year off to travel to Israel, Egypt, Greece, France, Netherlands, etc. I would study history, learn about their politics, taste the wine, and fall in love with the local women. When I got back I fully realized how the herd had been holding me back. I dropped out and started my own business. I sold it a few years ago and moved to LA where I became a photographer. I knew nothing of photography other than I was interested in "creating". Of course many of the pro photogs and people offering photography lessons stressed to me how difficult it is to make a living as a photographer. One "teacher" told me to expect to work for 3 or 4 years before your business becomes profitable. I shunned those toxic people and just bought some books to teach myself the basics. Within a year I had a cushy contract with a great company.

Now I am getting my RED, cooke lenses, steadicam and adding that to all my other production gear I have collected the past few years and am putting myself through my own film school.

Another thing to keep in mind is that people want to do business with people who do not need their business. So never "need" anything from these people.

You have to "be" successful in order to be sucessful. So simply DECIDE to be successful by creating your own spec commercials that blow away the work many of the well connected types churn out.

See you when we both get there

 

[Dylan Reeve]

When I was 16 I brought my own ENG camera (a second hand Sony DXC-327/EVV9000) an taught myself to use it - which was all well and good, so while I was perfectly capable of picking up just about any ENG camera, setting it up and recording with it, there was a huge amount about the larger process of production and working with a crew that I couldn't teach myself, even if I tried.

In the end, when I did go to film school, I found I learn a lot more about the whole process, and actually ended up moving more toward Post Production. But something like Film School is only really beneficial if you have the necessary self-motivation and willingness to learn. Those who go expecting to have it all somehow pushed into their brain, and then walk out and direct for New Line are going to be sorely disappointed.

Also it's incredibly important to realise that what you learn at film school is just the general idea, in the real world those ideas get taken and pushed in different ways. If you turn up on set and start telling the DP or Director that they're doing it the wrong way you will find yourself out in the cold real quick. By far the most sucessful people I went to school with are the one who were willing to go out and find people to learn from.

You can get all this without film school, just my getting some good connections and working for free or whatever, but school will give you a chance to experiment a lot more with different things.

 

[iseras]

Wow, you guys are fantastic! So many insightful and great responses! What an awesome community!

Quick overview of myself: By film school i mean a graduate MFA in film for 2-3 years at a school like USC or NYU. I majored in Communication as an undergrad and minored in film theory. I'm actually a professional in the television industry with 4 years of experience but I'm looking to move to film- that's where my passion is. I have experience with the HVX and directing documentaries, even making short films, so I certainly have experience in the media. I've saved up enough to go to film school, but again 160k (which factors in living cost/tuition/film stock) is really tons of money! Granted, no family or kids to support, but that's still tons of money!

I fully agree that a film education is priceless... and first and foremost, film is story- equipment just assists you in delivering it. So a great script beats out great image quality in my book. But I feel that the Red is such an inspiring piece of equipment that having it during graduate study, or even as an alternative, could kind of add to one's creative spark! And it's price (around 35k for a complete kit) is much less than the price of school. But then again, an education is priceless and so that's where i'm leaning

 

[Noah Posnick]

why do film schools only allow you to use their equipment on a projects they assign.

Firstly, it's because they don't have entire camera and g&e packages for every student to take out at once. Also, equipment breaks and needs to be repaired often, especially amongst non-professional students - the more gear they have and the more gear that's used, the more staff they need for repairs. Not to mention the increased insurance costs.

And I disagree with your comment that the kids with the best self-owned cameras end up working on the best projects. The best projects in your terms, being the higher-budget work, will most likely not be using cameras a student would own. If anything, the "best projects" will be renting 35 packages or shooting on Red, etc. And even if you're working on a large scale production, this doesn't mean you'll be getting the most experience.

 

[Obin Olson]

What a thread! love the passion everyone feels on the subject.

And here is my 2cents. If you really love what you are doing, school or no school does not really matter.... don`t forget this: 20k can buy you alot of the gear you need to do any real production, but only one red camera..I started 8 years ago with nothing but pure morbid determanation to learn and exceed. Now I own a production company with my family, not only do we own hundereds of thousands of dollars of real production gearbut our ability to create good work has earned us many awards and good projects.

It is all in what YOU want to do and the path you choose will follow imho.

Are you going to be a great filmmaker with a red camera?? no. can`t be... it is far to hard to learn everything you need to know with one tool so that you can re-create the world you live in inside a good story.

 

[Mike Prevette]

C: PA for a while and learn some practical production knowledge.

 

[Jason Wingrove]

Naah, skip driving lessons. Ride your push bike straight to the porsche showroom.

Seriously film school is a great grounding but nothing beats the real world. Get a job on a film, series, or in a working prod co. No matter what school you go to there's always a chasm of knowledge between it and the real world. But don't just go buy a plane and learn to fly on your own. You might get ok at taking off and flying around but one day your going to need to know how to land at an airport and deal with other aircraft, talk to traffic control etc.

Point is if you learn how to do something by yourself, that's all you'll know.

 

[Jason Ing]

Reminds me of the Robert Frost poem. Everyone here is telling you the path they took or would have liked to have taken.

The school of life will always be open and always be teaching you something your entire life... if you're willing to listen. The red camera represents a gateway that is opening up a continuation of that path for many of us--degree holders and not.

As far as a formal education. The red camera isn't going to teach you. Shawn and several others hit it on the head. ARE YOU AUTODIDACTIC? ARE YOU DISCIPLINED? ARE YOU DEDICATED? Or are you kidding yourself (hard question to truly answer... everyone is a wannabe until success hits).

As far as my path...

I am a voracious learner and self-teacher... from books and life. But I still went to USC film school. I won't bore you with details, but for me, I regret going and paying the tuition... I'm still paying it.

Ultimately, there is no right or wrong to going to school or not. Lucas went to film school, Spielberg didn't (http://www.scruffles.net/spielberg/articles/article-019.html). Ironically, when I was at USC, they gave Spielberg an honorary degree (rumor was that he was rejected by USC three times; don't know if that's true).

Success can be achieved down both paths.

This sounds corny, but...

...the answer is in yourself and only you know it.

So... the red or green pill?

 

[Brent J. Craig]

Also, why do film schools only allow you to use their equipment on a projects they assign.

It doesn't work like that here. In Toronto (Ryerson U.) a big part of our education was going to see the matriarch of the local inexpensive rental house, making our case why she should give us cheap gear, why we were worth the risk, and grovelling if necessary.

The best films were made by the best networkers, sweet-talkers, bullshitters, and grovellers. Just like in real life.

 

[Alexis Vanier]

It doesn't work like that here. In Toronto (Ryerson U.) a big part of our education was going to see the matriarch of the local inexpensive rental house, making our case why she should give us cheap gear, why we were worth the risk, and grovelling if necessary.

The best films were made by the best networkers, sweet-talkers, bullshitters, and grovellers. Just like in real life.

Wow... maybe I'm reading this wrong but that seems pretty undirected! I hope they gave you pointers as how to have a professional attitude and be respectful of your coworkers, otherwise it looks like the best way to form the people I don't like working with! :blink: I loathe sweet-talkers, bullshitters and grovellers! I really enjoy making an honest respectful hard working living.

Nevertheless, I agree there's nothing like the real thing to prepare you for the real thing + some theory.

 

[MattGahan]

I wen't to a film school (one of the three mentioned in a previous post) and if I could do it over would choose the RED and a few good books.

 

[Joel Kaye]

The best films were made by the best networkers, sweet-talkers, bullshitters, and grovellers. Just like in real life.

Hmm... my experience is these guys get the most stuff done. ONCE. Their storytelling has almost always sucked. There's this weird combination of the above stuff that has to be combined with actual "talent". Seems like BS'rs believe their own BS and think they are better than they really are.

I'm not convinced all the film school in the world can teach talent. How many kids graduate from USC and NY that want to direct each year?

I think a decent approach would be to hire a real crew to do a short. Like a two day shoot. Make good friends with them. LISTEN to their advice. Post your short through to completion. It'll probably suck. Repeat.

semi alternatively:
If you go down to film school with a budget for a movie/short you're shooting on RED and have them apply for their jobs you'll get the hottest students trying to have you hire them.

I just am not sure what the poster's final outcome is. Does he want to Direct? DP? Write? Produce? Get a union crew job?

If you want to write/direct I'd spend the money on screenwriting classes, script doctors and taking acting classes. And study movies you love. Listen to all the commentaries. That's some good film school often.

 

[Alexis Vanier]

[...] As far as a formal education. The red camera isn't going to teach you. Shawn and several others hit it on the head. ARE YOU AUTODIDACTIC? ARE YOU DISCIPLINED? ARE YOU DEDICATED? Or are you kidding yourself (hard question to truly answer... everyone is a wannabe until success hits).

[...]

This sounds corny, but...

...the answer is in yourself and only you know it.

So... the red or green pill?

I must point out there's a lot of wisdom here.

I did a mix of both. I've been to film school with the public system here and quit. Nevertheless I don't regret it. I learned things I would have never learned on a set. I learned how to analyze and keep learning. But I learned things on set I would have never learned at school. Books aren't going to tell you what the maximum windspeed you can expose a twelve by griffolyn rig held only by yellow rope and sandbags to. Essentially, how not to kill your coworkers by doing something stupid.

Both are very different schools.

Now my tuition is 54 CAD$ for a Canadian subscription to the ASC magazine a year plus video club rental and movie theather. A very inquisitive mind, a drive to get things done or into motion and internet access seems to do it for me... and those last words are the most important. It does it for ME. Very few of the people, and I can count them on a hand while holding a glass of chocolate milk, in my graduation, the one behind me and the one after shot another movie and/or ended up getting a job/gig/day anywhere close to the entertainment industry... and I consider we had good teachers.

I say the ingredients to success are a pair of balls and a spoonful of respect. I just haven't figured the best way to cook that yet...

 

[Jon Atack]

I would suggest attending a top film school for the learning environment, the networking opportunity, class friendships and the industry contacts.

This opinion is based on what I have seen first-hand. Five friends of mine, including my business partner since 2001, attended the Femis film school here in Paris, France. That school is particularly reputed here and well-funded to the point that tuition costs are basically non-existent by US standards.

Here is what I have seen happen since: After graduating a year and a half ago, one of them put out her first feature film as writer & director a little more than a year later, called "La Naissance des Pieuvres"; it was released last August in theaters nationwide, ran for about 2 months, and is still running in cinephile theaters. Another, arriving to the school from Russia, went to Cannes with his short and has gone on to do two features since, the second of which is currently in production in Russia and Poland. A third has been doing film soundtracks for his classmates fulltime since graduating, as well as writing & directing a documentary feature in production. My business partner, who does sound recording, editing and mixing, has been working non-stop with his classmates since graduation and his schedule is full through 2009. He is an exception, perhaps, because he is the first call for his classmates' sound needs, but his example strikes me as a good one: Best friends from film school can be first calls & referrals for a long time, if you are likable and good.

Film school represents a bigger picture than just buying a camera.

If you would enjoy being based in Paris or Europe, based on what I have seen first-hand, I would have a look at the Femis. Otherwise USC or UCLA would be good choices.

Cheers.

P.S. - I have no affiliation with the Femis; I am a happy music business and multimedia entrepreneur, who attended the MBA programme at Insead in Fontainebleau, France after an undergraduate degree in the US and 2 years of brand management & marketing with L'Oreal in Paris.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Choose whichever will teach you the most and put you on the best path to the future you desire.

The best way to determine which path that is: is to do it now and later evaluate whether or not it was best. :usd: