RED ONE vs. Scarlet...Thoughts?

[Luke Kokinos]

So, I'm an small filmmaker in Madison, WI. I am looking at doing some larger projects in the next year, along side my monthly web series. I've been a long time follower of RED, and currently I just shoot on a Nikon D7000 and Canon XH-A1, with external audio, however, as I move into features and longer shorts I want something of cinema quality, and with everything as cheap as it is, it's more of a reality.

But all fluff aside, I'm looking at boosting the value of my paid work, and hopefully be able to rent out a RED to Madison and Milwaukee filmmakers. I've been looking at the market, and the used market for RED Ones is quite enticing. However, correct me if I'm wrong, the RED One is locked on Mysterium-X Sensors, while Scarlets will eventually get upgraded to Dragon. But with shootable R1 kits at the same price, or even lower than a paperweight kit for the Scarlet, one has to ask some questions.

So, as I haven't used either camera, and I know people here have, I'm looking for the pros-cons of each camera.

Thanks,

Luke Kokinos
Suspended Disbelief Productions

 

[Nick Morrison]

So, I'm an small filmmaker in Madison, WI. I am looking at doing some larger projects in the next year, along side my monthly web series. I've been a long time follower of RED, and currently I just shoot on a Nikon D7000 and Canon XH-A1, with external audio, however, as I move into features and longer shorts I want something of cinema quality, and with everything as cheap as it is, it's more of a reality.

But all fluff aside, I'm looking at boosting the value of my paid work, and hopefully be able to rent out a RED to Madison and Milwaukee filmmakers. I've been looking at the market, and the used market for RED Ones is quite enticing. However, correct me if I'm wrong, the RED One is locked on Mysterium-X Sensors, while Scarlets will eventually get upgraded to Dragon. But with shootable R1 kits at the same price, or even lower than a paperweight kit for the Scarlet, one has to ask some questions.

So, as I haven't used either camera, and I know people here have, I'm looking for the pros-cons of each camera.

Thanks,

Luke Kokinos
Suspended Disbelief Productions

I'll let others more knowledgeable than I chime in here, but off top of my head:

PROS:

RED ONE
-->120fps at 2K
-->better audio workflow

SCARLET
-->smaller, lighter
-->upgradeable to Dragon (ie future proof)
-->accessories interchangeable with Epic (so easy to rent an Epic for bigger jobs and use all your same gear, media, etc)

Personally, for the same $$$, I would get a Scarlet: because you are staying current, etc. But at the right price, yes a R1 is very enticing, for sure.

 

[Mike P.]

Don't forget boot time: Scarlet takes less than 10seconds... R1 is over a minute. That's a tough pill to swallow if you're runnin' & gunnin' or your typical clients aren't used to having to wait for the camera to turn on.

Also, it's hard to recommend investing in an R1mx when Scarlet has a planned upgrade path (Dragon). Unless you're getting a wicked deal (shootable package for $5k) I think most people would be better off in the long run with a Scarlet.

 

[Luke Kokinos]

Good points. What's the Scarlet like for battery-life on normal sized RedVolts?

Luke Kokinos
Suspended Disbelief Productions

 

[Timur Civan]

If I were you, I'd go with a r1mx. It's excellent. Cheaper, and when the time comes to up grade, because it will get similar rates to a scarlet, while being more complete, you cam make a better profit, and have more for the future upgrade. Just make sure you get the SSD recording system.

 

[john jeffreys]

red one mx, pros: shoots 4.5k, 120fps at 2k, more robust audio features, heavier body when you want stability, way cheaper, has latest redcolor3/redlog film/etc.
cons: 90 second boot time, heavier body (both a pro and con), can't update to dragon, changing lens mounts is way harder than the DSMC's.

scarlet is smaller, lighter, modular, 12 second boot time, will get dragon, and does 5k 12fps (whatever that's worth), and you can sell your brain and get an epic brain and all your accessories will work.

 

[Roy Gregorio]

don't forget scarlet has HDRX!

 

[CocoBermudez]

One of the biggest PROS the RED ONE has over the EPIC and Scarlet is the usage of hard drives.

You can purchase used hard drives for almost nothing. I've seen 640GB drives go as low as $320...you CAN'T beat that!

I shoot a lot of interviews, so the ability of being able to record for hours on cheap media is amazing. I've used my drives in run and gun situations...and never had I had any issues with spinning drives. If you purchase one of those shock absorber cradles for a drive...you are golden.

Weight is relative to me...I have SCARLET..and by the time I add all my components...it becomes heavy. The difference to me is that the RED ONE sits comfortably on my shoulder...balanced. The SCARLET, being small, is front heavy when rigged up...in need of counterbalance.

I carry the RED ONE one my shoulders for about 6 hours...yeah of course it gets heavy...but manageable. You can strip a RED ONE to almost nothing....wear a battery clip, use a Zacuto viewfinder, etc. etc. You will shave lots of weight off.

and finally sensors...I think the MX is one heck of a sensor....incredibly superior to anything out there IMHO. You can't beat the deals out there on RED ONE's. I know this sounds silly...but on a set, the RED ONE looks impressive to clients...it's one heck of a good looking camera!

Also, if you are going to buy a used RED, try to get one from this usergroup...from someone trusted. And do it the correct way...have it blessed by RED. For about an extra $900 they will check the camera for defects and transfer the ownership to you...I think they also give you a 90 day warranty. You don't want to purchase any other way... buying it from whomever on Ebay is only a sure way to risk your investment.

my 2 cents!

 

[Matthew Mann]

Keep in mind the R1's form factor requires more heavy duty support. You will want a high quality fluid head and sticks no matter what, but the Scarlet's size and weight need less so it may be less of an overall investment. Also keep in mind the R1's size and weight is much more in line with a film camera's, and is a lot less shooter-friendly than the DSMC world.

 

[CocoBermudez]

When I first wanted to purchase the RED ONE way back in 2008, I consulted a couple of owner/operators...they kept on telling me how much of a beast it was.

Yes...I saw their configurations and they were 40+ pound monsters....they were outfitted with huge cinema lenses, double hard drives, double batteries for power...audio gear, rails...etc. etc. Honestly...totally intimidating.

Out of ignorance, I kept away from purchasing the RED ONE. With time, I started to figure things out...actually the RED ONE was shooter friendly.

Bottom line, you can make a RED ONE, and EPIC, or a SCARLET whatever you want it to be...as heavy as an 800lb gorilla or as light as a dainty little flower (ok..that was excessive) I've seen, EPICS and SCARLETS so ridiculously rigged that they are a bonafide back breaker...but if it suits your need..go for it..no rules.

This is the foundation of my RED ONE config.

RED BODY
RED HANDLE with ELEMENT TECHNICA CHEESE PLATE
NIKON PRO LOCK - for Nikon Primes
RED SSD SIDE
Elements Universal 15mm Lightweight Rod Bracket

What is not in the picture:
Nikon Duclos Mod Lenses
(2) 15mm lightweight rods with Zacuto Grips
Zacuto EVF
Battery on my belt or backpack (an actual backpack)

Honestly...this config does not weigh more than my old BETA SX ENG cam....

in fact...so light, I was able to ride a bike while holding the cam on my shoulder for a recent shoot...no bs!

 

[paul engstrom]

Hi Luke,

For your particular situation I agree here with Coco. You can get such insanely good deals on the RED1 (w/ MX and even SSD) that you will end up with a far more competent package for the projects you're describing. The Scarlet's 5k is a non-starter. 12fps is unusable. The weight of RED1 is relative--in other words, it depends what world the person calling it "heavy" comes from and also how skillful the owner is (as Coco mentions) at smartly tailoring it to their needs. Being able to use either extremely cheap harddrives (but you MUST get the ET iso mount!!) or SSD is really helpful...

I would say get the RED1, get it with SSD (which will allow you to purchase media [at least 128GB SSD cards] you can use in the future when you leapfrog the Scarlet and get what you really want: an Epic that shoots usable 5k/6k with high frame rates and HDR [ie. at the 5k/6k project settings]), think about what battery system you will want in the future (RED bricks? Something else V-lock? Anton Bauer?) and begin to grow that way. For a variety of reasons we prefer SWIT V-lock batteries. The Pag batteries are nice too. IDX makes great product. If it was more common in our market I'd love to go with Anton Bauer's superior gold mounting system. But that's not what our community uses. Resist purchasing much in the way of RED1 specific gear: try and get things that will work on the Epic you eventually buy and that are long-term professional. Get a mattebox from Bright Tangerine. Get a follow focus from Arri (or get a wireless Bartech--if you get a Bartech or similar, choose a battery system with a built-in D-tap). Get a fluid head from Oconnor--ideally a 2575 on Ronford sticks and/or a 1030 on Oconnor 25L sticks... And figure out how to purchase PL mount lenses (in the meantime, Nikon lenses and mount will work for you).

All of these things are expensive--but the money you save buy making a smart RED1 purchase will help you in all of these other areas.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

Hi Luke,

For your particular situation I agree here with Coco. You can get such insanely good deals on the RED1 (w/ MX and even SSD) that you will end up with a far more competent package for the projects you're describing. The 5k is a non-starter. 12fps is unusable. The weight of RED1 is relative--in other words, it depends what world the person calling it "heavy" comes from and also how skillful the owner is (as Coco mentions) at smartly tailoring it to their needs. Being able to use either extremely cheap harddrives (but you MUST get the ET iso mount!!) or SSD is really helpful...

I would say get the RED1, get it with SSD (which will allow you to purchase media [at least 128GB SSD cards] you can use in the future when you leapfrog the Scarlet and get what you really want: an Epic that shoots 5k/6k with high frame rates and HDR [ie. at the 5k/6k project settings]), think about what battery system you will want in the future (RED bricks? Something else V-lock? Anton Bauer?) and begin to grow that way. For a variety of reasons we prefer SWIT V-lock batteries. The Pag batteries are nice too. IDX makes great product. If it was more common in our market I'd love to go with Anton Bauer's superior gold mounting system. But that's not what our community uses. Resist purchasing much in the way of RED1 specific gear: try and get things that will work on the Epic you eventually buy and that are long-term professional. Get a mattebox from Bright Tangerine. Get a follow focus from Arri (or get a wireless Bartech--if you get a Bartech or similar, choose a battery system with a built-in D-tap). Get a fluid head from Oconnor--ideally a 2575 on Ronford sticks and/or a 1030 on Oconnor 25L sticks... And figure out how to purchase PL mount lenses (in the meantime, Nikon lenses and mount will work for you).

All of these things are expensive--but the money you save buy making a smart RED1 purchase will help you in all of these other areas.

+1 awesome advice.

 

[Adam Beck]

Luke,

I was in the same position a year ago, I chose to go scarlet because I took the Epic Reducation class ( highly recommend) got really comfortable with the epic form factor. It was easy to operate, change lens mounts, touch screen monitor and its exposure tools. But if the scarlet had not been 4k, I would have bought an older R1.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I agree with Coco too. These cameras are what you make them. I've had Red One weight in at around 15 lbs ready to shoot. And I too have seen Epics that have been monsters. Identify your needs and budget and buy any of the cameras with confidence. They all make nice pictures.

 

[Kacey Baker]

Hi Luke

I don' t have the answer you seek, but I was in your exact position just over 2 weeks ago.

I ended up buying the RED ONE MX.

For nearly the same price as a SCARLET brain, I scored myself an entire Feature Film ready R1 Rig with most of the accessories, (power and storage etc), and it's only clocked up a few hundred hours which is barely claimable.

Sure it's not upgradeable, but at what point in our career does it need to be, I know for me I don't need to upgrade for another 3 - 5 years, ''some'' (not all ;p) people here are so focused on upgrading to Dragon only to find their current footage on vimeo looks like 5d footage, in my opinion its more about perfecting the MX for now.

I'm reminded just how great the MX sensor is every time I go to the movies and watch another movie shot using it. I think now here in Sydney we have about 4 movies shot on Red One, Dredd, The Bacherlorette, and a couple of others, seriously I cant believe I have the same technology for just $12k, I own it, it's mine and it was so dam cheap I can spend the margin on lighting, lenses etc. By the time I perfect this, I'll have made enough money to by the Epic, that's if I need it LOL

Just some food for thought.

 

[patrickortman]

I think many of the people who dismiss the RED One (the MX flavor) are trying to be in the camera rental business, not the filmmaker business. For them, only the latest and greatest will do, and yeah- many of them don't actually do much with their cameras.

For me, I still love my RED MX. Love it. I use it all the time, I've flown around the continent with it, and I'll keep using it. But I've added a Scarlet to my camera collection, too, mainly because I like the idea of a much lighter steadicam rig, easier airline travel, and being able to easily steal shots around town without hauling a ton of gear with me. Plus, now I can do two camera shoots for clients- both being REDs- and that's pretty cool. We'll be pushing that capability in the new year for sure.

In a lot of ways, I think the bigger RED MX is a more cinematic camera, just because it's big and heavy. Remember when David Lynch did those Playstation commercials, and he added 15lbs of steel to his dv camera? It helped get that classic "feel".

And for client work, I love that the MX has all the ins and outs we need. Don't need to add a Pro I/O module to it.

That said, I can't wait to fly with my Scarlet. Getting the camera, lenses, media, laptop, etc., all into one carry-on friendly pelican will be swell.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

If I were you, I'd go with a r1mx. It's excellent. Cheaper, and when the time comes to up grade, because it will get similar rates to a scarlet, while being more complete, you cam make a better profit, and have more for the future upgrade. Just make sure you get the SSD recording system.

Id go with the cheaper red one.. why?

cuz youll buy a scarlet and in 6 months it will be worth half of what you paid, and in a year you will be able to get better quality out of a 1200.00 DSLR.

just facts... dont buy a camera hoping the rental game is gunna make you money.. IT WONT.


buy glass, grip and lighting if you want to play on that field

im just waiting for the day someone decides to hack into the red one.. change the body out to lighter/better form factor and sell that aftermarket upgrade kit...

maybe i need to get on that

 

[Björn Benckert]

Good points. What's the Scarlet like for battery-life on normal sized RedVolts?

Luke Kokinos
Suspended Disbelief Productions

At the moment it eats batteries faster than mags.. about 15 minutes per red volt. Red mentioned that the power management will be implemented in the next release to improve this matter.

 

[Ed David]

The media savings are huge with a Red One if you get a Red RAM. Also you can shoot higher frame rates in 2k mode vs the Scarlet. Also you can shoot in 4k HD mode not just 4k QUAD which seems to produce a more pleasing image.

 

[Adam Camporeale]

From what I gather though, the Scarlet (or for that matter an Epic which I am very much looking at) will be better for run and gun/event style work right? Lighter, less overheat issues, quicker boot time, longer battery life on red bricks? Correct me if I'm wrong!

I'm very likely going Red in the next month or so, but the camera will get a work out in event scenarios (as well as TVC's, Corporates and Music Videos) and I want to make sure I go the right direction.