Red One vs DSLR on Macbook for Post

[Carlos Dueñas]

No feature film was ever shot on Betacam except porn. Blair witch used some kind of DV or Hi-8, but that was using the look as an effect integrated into the story, not trying to shoot standard fiction set-ups on that format.

Who told you that?

 

[Craig Parkes]

You can edit a feature film on a laptop if your workflow is right.

You just can't really finish a feature film on a laptop.

I mean, seriously, a new Macbook Pro still has many more times the grunt than many a desktop NLE from 5-6 years ago, and features were edited then.

What you are looking at though is your offline/online process, how are you getting your rushes (getting someone else to do it, doing it yourself?) etc.

With a well thought out workflow the actual editing machine requires a lot less spec, especially if you are editing in reels and doing mostly cuts only editing and don't have miles of previz type vfx comps cluttering up your timeline.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

If you have the money to do massive hollywood-scale effects and need the horsepower for it then you probably already have the money to buy both a laptop and a desktop.
But to keep it real, if the online process is grading and online then you can do it on a laptop... I have done it. You need an I/O capable of 10-bit uncompressed and a monitor that is calibrated. Then you need a RAID through thunderbolt to reach the desired bandwidth... but you CAN do it.

Also, I don't know about FCP, but in Avid, it doesn't matter how large the timeline is, I worked with the entire movie in one timeline and it worked just like on a desktop setup.
I think that people should try and use a powerful laptop before saying it isn't possible. If you have a MCP with 16 gb of ram, a thunderbolt RAID, an I/O and a HP dreamcolor display, then what "can't" you do? Powerful effects shouldn't be done by the editor on a "serious" project, that's the VFX-artists job and he/she is probably working on another system.

Sometimes people mistake harddrive bandwidth with the hardware of the computer. The thunderbolt is capable of streaming more then 4 streams of uncompressed 1080p. If you have a monster desktop and not the harddrive bandwidth, then that desktop is a serious waste of money.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

But all the re-lighting and moire-elimination costs time on set, as does fiddling with the cam because you can't save anything in a grade later. Red is fast in that you can save yourself from your mistakes very often in post, and there are way fewer caveats

That's just ignorance.

First off, ever since the great concern over DSLR moire came to light, I've noticed how much moire there is in 1080p deliverables from 35mm sources - like broadcast features.

I think one of the key features of shooting DSLR is that you can light more like you would film or high end digital cinema. I light pretty much the same with a 7D as I do with an R1 (non-upgraded) ... except the 7D is more sensitive to light. Don't get me wrong ... the R1 non-MX is still a better camera - so long as you can also bring a bigger light package.

Alexa and Red One MX can still be bested by DSLR technology in some situations - like the all too famous House episode and other situations where size matters.

I'm afraid only the EPIC is better than a DSLR in 100% of on set situations. Actually, I can imagine some very tight quarters where even Epic with DSLR glass might not fit, but a DSLR would ... but it's an extreme edge case.

No camera is perfect.

If you want to think that the gear is what makes the film, well I'm sad for you.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

No feature film was ever shot on Betacam except porn. Blair witch used some kind of DV or Hi-8, but that was using the look as an effect integrated into the story, not trying to shoot standard fiction set-ups on that format. DSLRs are awful tools. I wish they weren't so I coudl have spent my 50K or so on something other than my Red MX kit but they are.

You are factually incorrect.

There are over 400 titles shot with Betacam or Betacam SP. I suppose a few other Betacam varieties may have snuck into my search as well, but its predominantly Betacam SP

Blair Witch was shot with 8mm video, Hi8 video and 16mm film. 28 Days Later was shot with an XL-1. There are over 200 titles shot on DV or MiniDV, there are another 100 or so shot on DVCPRO excluding DVCPRO HD.

My argument is extremely simple- DSLR cameras produce better quality images than any standard definition camera. DSLR cameras in fact produce better images than a number of older HD cameras- especially HDV and low end DVCPRO HD units

Calling them awful is just plain inaccurate.

Its more accurate to say there are a lot of better choices available. I happen to believe Red is one of the best available at any price- but that still doesn't make it the right tool for every project - or even for every shot in a given project!

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Short answer - seems to me you are basing some important decisions about a project that is going to be a lot of work and dedication from a lot of people, on the wrong things. I suggest you step back and re-evaluate carefully and set some priorities as to what you want to accomplish. Then rethink your workflow based on those priorities.

The way you have it now, you could waste a lot of money in some areas just to save it in less important ones.

EDIT: And two other thoughts...

1) if you can afford to shoot RED ONE, why can't you allocate more money to other areas?
2) You mention FCP-X but you don't yet know how it will handle R3Ds. Maybe it will make it very doable on a laptop, maybe not.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

If you have the money to do massive hollywood-scale effects and need the horsepower for it then you probably already have the money to buy both a laptop and a desktop.
But to keep it real, if the online process is grading and online then you can do it on a laptop... I have done it. You need an I/O capable of 10-bit uncompressed and a monitor that is calibrated. Then you need a RAID through thunderbolt to reach the desired bandwidth... but you CAN do it.

Also, I don't know about FCP, but in Avid, it doesn't matter how large the timeline is, I worked with the entire movie in one timeline and it worked just like on a desktop setup.
I think that people should try and use a powerful laptop before saying it isn't possible. If you have a MCP with 16 gb of ram, a thunderbolt RAID, an I/O and a HP dreamcolor display, then what "can't" you do? Powerful effects shouldn't be done by the editor on a "serious" project, that's the VFX-artists job and he/she is probably working on another system.

Sometimes people mistake harddrive bandwidth with the hardware of the computer. The thunderbolt is capable of streaming more then 4 streams of uncompressed 1080p. If you have a monster desktop and not the harddrive bandwidth, then that desktop is a serious waste of money.

Oh really? I call shenanigans on the hardware claims.

I suppose you are a beta tester for Thunderbolt RAID arrays then? You do realize they aren't available for sale just yet right? They are expected any minute now, but they are not available to the public yet.

Until VERY recently the best you could do was a dual port eSATA adapter with port multiplication ... so if you built a RAID 0 striped across two enclosures you could have the performance for multistream uncompressed 1080p editorial. 3D Uncompressed editorial... not buying it. Uncompressed playback? Sure I'll believe that, not editorial though. You need at least 680MB/s sustained for dual stream 3D playback of 422 material uncompressed at 1080/24p. You can not achieve that with laptops yet.

That I know of there are two eSATA 3 (6G) cards for laptops, and there are no eSATA 3 enclosures or port multiplying enclosures. We'll probably get those eSATA 3 enclosures around the same time we get Thunderbolt enclosures - in fact I bet some Thunderbolt enclosures will also be able to connect via eSATA 3 and USB 3.

On the other hand, even a cheap sub $500 PC will have multiple SATA ports, and you can attach a number of disks to it to get the bandwidth needed for Uncompressed HD. Use a eSATA RAID card and you can build a powerful storage subsystems for peanuts. If you have the cash you can build a very powerful and reliable storage subsystem.

Now here's the thing - you could do that part of the editorial/post puzzle for decades now on desktops. This is why old desktop NLE systems worked well even though they had much slower processors than current laptops.

Processing power is another story ... but what's the point of fast processors if they are sitting idle waiting for your disks? The 2011 MBP is faster than current model single processor Mac Pro's on a lot of tasks that are not disk bound. The current MacBook Pro will finally deliver this capability once the Thunderbolt devices start shipping ... but not just yet.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I have an eSATA 3 card.
eSATA 3 offers close to 600 MB/s, using SSD's in a RAID with two channels (3D) of uncompressed 10bit YUV maxes out at 276 MB/s. Of course I don't do online for a feature film, but I still got the specs to do it.
As for the thing about me having thunderbolt to test, no I said that if you want to do online you can do it with those specs, didn't mean that it was used when I did online.

Thing is that the bandwidth for the uncompressed stream is most of the time clogged up by too slow harddrives or connections, not the processing power of the system, which can be lower in most cases.
As long as the video stream doesn't have to be processed through a massive realtime conversion on the graphics end it should be playable on a lesser system with the bandwidth needed.
Like when trying to edit Canon 7D or 5D footage, it sometimes slows down a system more then an uncompressed videostream, just because the processing power of the codec is so complicated, even though it streams at around only 30-40 MB/s (don't remember the exact number).

What I meant was that I can do this on my now old laptop, the MBP have much better specs and gives more options for bandwidth. But to say that desktop is "the only way" is just not true. It depends on what you are doing.
Heavy effect, compositing, heavy grading etc. a desktop is better. But editing, online and regular grading at around 1080p you can do it on a laptop for sure.

Sometimes I think people overdo their specification needs. What are you going to do? I seriously doubt that most people will be making an VFX heavy, 4K delivery feature film by themselves?
Why buy the best top notch supersystem when you won't be needing it? I bought a 7D to shoot video, I never used it for that because whenever I've been doing a shoot we rented a Red or Alexa instead.

Don't waste money on stuff you don't need, I use the system that I need and right now that is a MBP because it has the portability I need when working as an editor close to a production (instead of driving the footage to me it's better to be close to the director and location in my opinion).

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I have an eSATA 3 card.
eSATA 3 offers close to 600 MB/s, using SSD's in a RAID with two channels (3D) of uncompressed 10bit YUV maxes out at 276 MB/s. Of course I don't do online for a feature film, but I still got the specs to do it.

The PC Expresscard slot only offers 2.5Gbits/s, or about 312MB/s peak transfer.

So, in truth, it can't even sustain the full data rate of a single eSATA 2 port.

The bandwidth for uncompressed depends on lots of things.

10 bit 422 Uncompressed YUV video at 24fps is about 130MB/s

10 bit 444 RGB Uncompressed 24fps is about 190MB/s

3D doubles those rates. So ... you could maybe get sustained 3D playback of a single stream provided the files are defragmented on a PC Expresscard adapter, if its 10 bit 422 YUV. 10 bit 444 RGB can't be played back in 3D from eSATA on laptops - yet.

As frame rate increases though it becomes untenable. 10 bit 422 1080/29.97p YUV uncompressed is 158MB/s, so again you can't play that back in 3D on laptops today.

So, shenanigans I say on this editing uncompressed on a laptop.

Canon 7D/5D footage is 45Mbps, or about 5.6MB/s. Its the processing that kills most NLE's.

ProRes, Cineform or Avid DNxHD are all great solutions. They are around 200Mbps, or 25MB/s ... so eSATA arrays can readily play them back in multistream for editorial.

REDCODE 42 is "only" 42MB/s, so again a fast eSATA array can play multiple streams back in realtime - provided the computer can process it.

I've recommended REDCODE 28 for projects in the past - especially if they sought to deliver 2K or 1080p. They get the advantages of shooting 4K in a data workflow that's roughly like ProResHQ. (And I've seen even that overwhelm productions too!)

 

[Christoffer Glans]

10 bit 422 Uncompressed YUV video at 24fps is about 130MB/s

One post production facility in town has this as their standard master quality. 444 is good when doing heavy effects, green screen etc. Did I mention that this is something the VFX people should be doing, not you as an editor?
And because there's no need to master anything 29,97p, especially in PAL-land, I don't see that reference as relevant. Even though I might be wrong on the expresscard slot speed it still manage 275MB/s. I have tried it and it works so at least there's no shenanigans in my setup. 10 bit 422 Uncompressed YUV at 25 fps makes around 138 MB/s, two streams in 3D doubles that and it is within the range that my system can handle. I said I already tested it and it worked. But because I only do online for regular 2D, 3D is as of now "working" but I would not use my current system for it. Thunderbolt has demonstrated four streams of uncompressed 1080p playing at the same time without being close to it's bandwidth limit. It was played back on a macbook pro 15, not even their most powerful setup of MBP's.

I really don't know why you speak of this like there's months before you can use thunderbolt? There's a RAID system, the same one used on the video stream test, going out on the market pretty soon. But what I don't understand is what this discussion is about? What I said was that you can call yourself a professional editor with whatever tool you use. You can use iMovie for all I care, but if you know the editing basics, know storytelling, have a little talent, a "nische" or whatever and make a living on editing... then yes, you are a professional editor.

So anyone saying that someone else isn't a serious editor because of his/her choice of tool is probably more unprofessional then the person they point at.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

One post production facility in town has this as their standard master quality. 444 is good when doing heavy effects, green screen etc. Did I mention that this is something the VFX people should be doing, not you as an editor?

Just because the editor shouldn't be doing effects doesn't mean that they don't. Also, a lot of editors are being asked to finish, or at least to assemble the finished elements from various sources.

And because there's no need to master anything 29,97p, especially in PAL-land, I don't see that reference as relevant.

We don't all live in PAL land.

Even though I might be wrong on the expresscard slot speed it still manage 275MB/s. I have tried it and it works so at least there's no shenanigans in my setup. 10 bit 422 Uncompressed YUV at 25 fps makes around 138 MB/s, two streams in 3D doubles that and it is within the range that my system can handle. I said I already tested it and it worked. But because I only do online for regular 2D, 3D is as of now "working" but I would not use my current system for it.

I just want to point out that the whole issue isn't anymore that you can't edit on a laptop, but rather that we are talking about uncompressed editing on a laptop.

You can run uncompressed and so long as you aren't running multiple streams for very long it will work. 3D won't hold up though.

Thunderbolt has demonstrated four streams of uncompressed 1080p playing at the same time without being close to it's bandwidth limit. It was played back on a macbook pro 15, not even their most powerful setup of MBP's.

I think we agree on that. My only point is that it isn't available YET. It will be soon, but you keep mentioning it as though its here now and tested and working.

I really don't know why you speak of this like there's months before you can use thunderbolt? There's a RAID system, the same one used on the video stream test, going out on the market pretty soon.

Sometime soon isn't now.

But what I don't understand is what this discussion is about? What I said was that you can call yourself a professional editor with whatever tool you use. You can use iMovie for all I care, but if you know the editing basics, know storytelling, have a little talent, a "nische" or whatever and make a living on editing... then yes, you are a professional editor.

Oh I'd agree. You can be a professional editor without even owning an edit system.

So anyone saying that someone else isn't a serious editor because of his/her choice of tool is probably more unprofessional then the person they point at.

What I said was, "The central advice I have, in agreement with most here, is this: If your editor wants to edit with a laptop ... they aren't really an editor with credible experience on long form projects."

The central truth of long form editorial is that organization reigns supreme - and you can organize on anything with a keyboard you find adequate.

Technologically, long form projects will beat up your system, especially the disks, and test your workflow a lot more than short form ones.

It can be done, but there are compromises. The simplest one is to break the picture into segments and edit those, then assemble rendered completed edits.

Frankly its a testament to the state of technology that editing a feature on a laptop is even an arguable position.

In any case we are arguing semantics and technical details. In a year it will certainly be a moot point because online editing on laptops will be increasingly mainstream.

 

[paulherrin]

alex, let's stop arguing. the only things left to say have to do with advice for tyler dealing with supplementary hardware and workflow for his project.

 

[Jason Svatos]

I am curious, Tyler, which way are you currently swaying? The 5D or the RED ONE?

I have to say, the idea of a feature length piece shot on a DSLR and edited on a laptop certainly intrigues me.

 

[prime zero]

You can shoot your project on Red and edit it on a macbook pro. Just make sure you get an ssd for the hard drive(it will speed everything up). I had a 3.2GHZ 8 core mac pro fully maxed out on everything and I just bought a maxed out new thunderbolt laptop and it is faster. You might want to invest in a thunderbolt storage system when they are available next month though because of the amount of data you will have. Don't ever let people tell you that you can't do something. It may not be the ideal situation but it is what you can afford so go ahead and do it. You can do whatever you put your mind to and people have done movies with less. It may be more difficult than having a 12 core tower and a render farm but it is possible and as long as your end product looks the same thats all that matters. No one is ever going to not like your movie because you did it on a laptop

 

[TylerPavey]

Haha, wow, I leave for 24 hours and the chest puffing gets out of control. Calm down boys, you're arguing on opinions, not facts. The last dozen or so posts have nothing to do with the topic of this thread. I'm just going to call Red in the morning and ask them straight up.

Jason, to answer your question, I'm currently leaning towards Red 1 MX, basically for the sake of two factors: respect for my cinematographer and production value. I too am rather intrigued by the concept of shot on 5D, edited on a laptop. It's got a nice little indie vibe to it, but I have a crew built from entirely film school grads. They all know what a camera is and what it does. Quite simply, my DP, my gaffer, my AC, and the rest of the production team will step up their games if they know we're dealing with a cinema quality camera. Yes we'll be spending some dollars there that could go elsewhere and it will be a tough squeeze to make it work, but as an independent director, part of my job is to manage the morale of your crew, and the mindset that goes with a Red shoot is invaluable. Respect your crew and they'll respect you. And when I say respect for my DP, I mean allowing him to look at an HD monitor (5D downresses when you hit record) and giving him something in return for working for free. He can shoot DSLR any day. It will be both of our first features, and I want it to be something we can be proud of. Simply put, technology is moving fast, but Red will hold up...5D, though I still believe it to be an exceptional camera, might not for long.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Tyler, I'm sorry for the "hijack" of the thread, didn't mean to do that.
As for the choice I think that for quality it's hands down the Red one. But just like Black Swan shot partially on a 7D, different situations call for different cameras.
If you have little space and need to shoot something fast then a 5D is a good choice (I would say renting an Epic is better because they are similar in size, but that comes down to if it's avalible and how the budget is).

Thing is, most of people won't know or care what camera was used, they might never even see a difference. Great cinematography has to do with emotions. People like the cinematography in Tree of Life, not because it's shot on 35mm, but because it's emotional, poetic and atmospheric. If you think about your images and how to edit them together then it doesn't matter what camera that was used, you might win an award for great cinematography anyway,

Everything comes down to what you want. Do you want "slick" clean footage with a cinematic quality? Then go with the Red allt he way. If you don't care about it and just want to make great movies, then it doesn't matter. If you want it to hold up for the future, Red is the best choice.

 

[Jason Svatos]

Can't argue with that, really. And while I have zero experience with editing RED ONE footage on a laptop, I know for a fact it has been done and, with the right workflow, won't even be that bad of a headache.

Best of luck on your shoot, sir.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Haha, wow, I leave for 24 hours and the chest puffing gets out of control. Calm down boys, you're arguing on opinions, not facts. The last dozen or so posts have nothing to do with the topic of this thread. I'm just going to call Red in the morning and ask them straight up.

Jason, to answer your question, I'm currently leaning towards Red 1 MX, basically for the sake of two factors: respect for my cinematographer and production value. I too am rather intrigued by the concept of shot on 5D, edited on a laptop. It's got a nice little indie vibe to it, but I have a crew built from entirely film school grads. They all know what a camera is and what it does. Quite simply, my DP, my gaffer, my AC, and the rest of the production team will step up their games if they know we're dealing with a cinema quality camera. Yes we'll be spending some dollars there that could go elsewhere and it will be a tough squeeze to make it work, but as an independent director, part of my job is to manage the morale of your crew, and the mindset that goes with a Red shoot is invaluable. Respect your crew and they'll respect you. And when I say respect for my DP, I mean allowing him to look at an HD monitor (5D downresses when you hit record) and giving him something in return for working for free. He can shoot DSLR any day. It will be both of our first features, and I want it to be something we can be proud of. Simply put, technology is moving fast, but Red will hold up...5D, though I still believe it to be an exceptional camera, might not for long.

Yeah, sorry for my all too significant part of the threadjacking.

I really like working with Red, so if you can afford it, then do it!

Just remember to make sure you've budgeted properly for data ingest and backup ... and that you have good people doing the work.

You can definitely edit Red on a laptop ... but again, a feature is going to be tough. I'd want a Rocket attached to the system to do full post with R3D. I'd also wait a bit for the Thunderbolt drive arrays and such to become available.

Best of luck!

 

[TylerPavey]

Awesome gang. Thanks for all your help! Moving forward on shooting Red MX. I'm going to migrate to a new post here...onto the next hurdle...where do we rent from?

EDIT: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?59685-Where-to-rent-a-RED-One-MX-in-the-LA-area