Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

24fps for US TV series?

C

Carsten Kurz

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
69
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Someone claimed that 'Lost' is shot at 24fps. I insisted that would make no sense since it's a US TV series and why would they routinely do 3:2 for their home market? Certainly not just to make conversion to 50Hz easier for the international market, huh?

Is there 'Lost' material on the NAB 09 demoreel?

Any comments on common fps practice for the US broadcast market?

- Carsten
 
US TV shot on film is indeed shot at 24p and yes indeed, 3:2 pulldown is added. And it's because the world market is bigger than the home market and 24p converts to 25p very easily with a 4% speedup.

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
US TV shot on film is indeed shot at 24p and yes indeed, 3:2 pulldown is added.
Click to expand...

Only for broadcast, not for mastering. All post production is done at 24p, and the final studio master is in 1920x1080 on HDCam SR at 24p (23.98 to be precise). Broadcast in the US is on ABC, so a delivery master is made in 720p/60 for that. Various other masters are made for other purposes, almost always directly from the 24p original master. Those would include 1080/60i for syndication, 1080/50i for foreign HD deliveries, and NTSC and PAL for various other purposes, including DVD and standard def foreign markets. All 50i versions are made by playing the 24p master at 25 frames and using either the HD output or a PAL downconversion as needed. Any HDCam SR machine is capable of this type of operation as long as it is fed proper sync. BluRay discs are sourced directly from the 24p original.

The answer to the original question is basically yes, 24p was adopted for post production in part because it can serve as a common source base for 24 frame, 25 frame, 50 field, 60 field, and 60 frame systems.
 
carsten said:
Someone claimed that 'Lost' is shot at 24fps. I insisted that would make no sense since it's a US TV series and why would they routinely do 3:2 for their home market? Certainly not just to make conversion to 50Hz easier for the international market, huh?

Is there 'Lost' material on the NAB 09 demoreel?

Any comments on common fps practice for the US broadcast market?

- Carsten
Click to expand...

Most dramatic shows are shot at 24 fps (or 23.976) for US broadcast, just like most movies in the U.S. are shot at 24 fps for theatrical, and the home video and broadcast purposes. That's the way it's been done for decades -- people are very used to seeing 3:2 pulldown. There is very little 30P shooting for narrative work.

There is, of course, still a lot of standard 60i (59.94) video photography done in the U.S. for reality shows, EPK/EFP, soaps, news, etc. But there is more progressive-scan work being done there too, at all sorts of frame rates, from 24P to 60P. Don't know if there is a lot of 30P work being done -- the few times I've been involved in an HD shoot for a cable channel like Discovery, the discussion is usually "24P versus 60i/60P." Usually they don't want the 24P "film look" they want the 60i/60P look. But it varies. Perhaps Steve Gibby can chime in as to what frame rates, progressive and interlace, his clients want him to shoot at.

60i converts to 50i a little easier than 30P converts to 50i, so there is less of a problem with shooting it, even for international distribution. More motion samples to play with in the conversion (60 versus 30).
 
As an aside, I recently saw one of the cast from "Heroes" interviewed on British TV. He watched a clip of the show, and commented on how the voices sounded 'a semitone higher'. There's your 24>25 speedup...
 
mmost said:
All 50i versions are made by playing the 24p master at 25 frames and using either the HD output or a PAL downconversion as needed.
Click to expand...

There are a few shows broadcast in Australia where they do a direct conversion rather than do a speed change - apparently this is to do with extremely tight turnaround (within 24-48 hours of US airdate) but I didn't think it was impossible to re-do the audio at this end... Sigh. End result is yes, we get the shows earlier but they're fuzzy from the direct 23.98->50i process.
 
Ben Holmes said:
As an aside, I recently saw one of the cast from "Heroes" interviewed on British TV. He watched a clip of the show, and commented on how the voices sounded 'a semitone higher'. There's your 24>25 speedup...
Click to expand...

I think I've read somewhere that there are some programs that can help improve that "semitone higher". Do you guys know if Soundtrack would be able to fix and bring down a semitone in the sound?

I am going to have to do some PAL outputs for the first time and I am debating how to do the conversion. I know it might have been debated so much, but can't find it. I know there are mainly two ways, speed up, (good for getting frame by frame, but loosing sound quality and not matching speed with original intent.) Or keep same speed and do 24 to 25 frame, then you have perfect sound and speed but motion artifacts. And then a combination of the too. Which one would you guys recommend? I only have Final cut and AE CS4. Do you think I can get decent results with this?


Thanks,

IC
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Most dramatic shows are shot at 24 fps (or 23.976) for US broadcast, just like most movies in the U.S. are shot at 24 fps for theatrical, and the home video and broadcast purposes. That's the way it's been done for decades -- people are very used to seeing 3:2 pulldown. There is very little 30P shooting for narrative work.
Click to expand...

Can the same be said for nationally shot (HD not film) spots? (U.S. only)
Click to expand...
 
Cail Young said:
There are a few shows broadcast in Australia where they do a direct conversion rather than do a speed change - apparently this is to do with extremely tight turnaround (within 24-48 hours of US airdate) but I didn't think it was impossible to re-do the audio at this end... Sigh. End result is yes, we get the shows earlier but they're fuzzy from the direct 23.98->50i process.
Click to expand...

I don't know of anyone who does that on 24p material. Today, that is only done on material that is finished in 60i, which would primarily be reality shows and other non-entertainment material. Any film or digital program that is posted in 24p has the 25 version done directly from that by playing back the 24 frame master at 25 frames. Any HDCam SR machine is capable of this, provided it is fed proper sync.
 
Just worked on a pilot for ABC where 23.976PsF (segmented frame) was used. (Shot on Genesis)

This may become more popular in the future for broadcast as it can simplify the conversion of content to different video standards across the world.
 
I work on LOST. We shoot Super 35mm 3 perf @ 24fps. Panavision cameras.


carsten said:
Someone claimed that 'Lost' is shot at 24fps. I insisted that would make no sense since it's a US TV series and why would they routinely do 3:2 for their home market? Certainly not just to make conversion to 50Hz easier for the international market, huh?

Is there 'Lost' material on the NAB 09 demoreel?

Any comments on common fps practice for the US broadcast market?

- Carsten
Click to expand...
 
muffinny said:
I think I've read somewhere that there are some programs that can help improve that "semitone higher".

IC
Click to expand...

Very easy to do a 4% pitch conversion down in most sound processing tools. Common practice as I understand.
 
Casey Green said:
Just worked on a pilot for ABC where 23.976PsF (segmented frame) was used. (Shot on Genesis)

This may become more popular in the future for broadcast as it can simplify the conversion of content to different video standards across the world.
Click to expand...

David Mullen ASC said:
23.976 fps has been the norm for 24P digital cameras for almost a decade, and for any 24 fps film transferred to 59.94i.
Click to expand...

Yes, indeed. I was referring to PsF (Segmented Frame) which hasn't been the norm, as far as I know. Have you worked in this format much?
 
Well, since the Sony F900 was really the first "24P" camera, and I used one in 2000 when it first appeared, and it commonly is set to record 23.98PsF... yes, I'm familiar with PsF.

It was originally confusing because people assumed it was some sort of trick to convert interlaced-scan photography to progressive scan, especially since when you turned on a multi-format Sony HD CRT monitor on a set, it would show a "48i" signal indicator.

I was just confused when you said that "23.98PsF may become more popular in the future" when it was one of the first 24P recording formats and is one of the most common and durable ones -- in other words, it's nothing new.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top