RED One "Video Village"

[Roxco]

Canon showed some new auto focus technology at NAB where they "steal" some of the image from the lens and hit a focusing sensor, but I think tape measures and focus pullers will be near the lens for a few more years.

Here is a report on the new Canon lens technology, but it may not be suitable for narrative work.

Rosco

http://hd.broadcastnewsroom.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=126260

The Canon DIGISUPER 100AF and DIGISUPER 86AF lenses (model numbers XJ100x9.3B AF and XJ86x9.3B AF, respectively) create an operator-controllable window in the HD camera’s viewfinder that targets the object operators want to focus most sharply on in the scene. Camera operators can change the window’s position and size by means of a miniature joystick on the camera handle’s focus servo control. An additional button provides three modes of operation:
1) Part-Time – actuates the auto-focus system as long as a control button is depressed.
2) Full-Time – actuates the auto-focus continually on selected moving objects such as racing cars (which might be speeding toward the camera position), or for shooting situations entailing full-servo robotic operation.
3) Off – allows for normal, unassisted lens focus.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

4k on the highway

4k on the highway

This is a bit off topic, but I have to ask: Even if one were available, how would you plan to use a 4K monitor in this scenario? You will likely never get a "live" 4K feed out of the camera (Red has pretty much said this), and Final Cut cannot deliver 4K playback, at least not in this iteration. The only time you will actually have a 4K image to view would be on a final deliverable, after all work is basically done and you can generate 4K images. So how would you be using it in a production environment, other than to look at individual frames?

Just curious..

Would that be Mike Most out of Florida asking? In any case, AFAIK there is no live 4k monitoring pipeline available at any price - right now. My assumption is that within 2 years multi-core CPUs, faster internal busses and other hardware improvements will make it possible to take the RedCode RAW data off RedDrives or solid state media, transcode it in realtime (or close to) in RedCine and display it. IMHO the biggest hurdle will be the pipe from the computer to the display.

Obviously a key issue is whether we are talking about an uncompressed data stream from server to display, I am presuming some sort of wavelet compression will be needed for implementation. This opens up a discussion of whether RED's 4k monitors and projectors will be designed as "open" systems or if they will depend on a proprietary codec. It also begs the question of whether "uncompressed" offers a big enough quality premium over wavelet and other advanced codecs to justify its overhead.

I heard that the RED demo at NAB used a fast (expensive) server and 8 lanes of HD-SDI to feed the Sony SXRD 4k projector. Obviously a more efficient topology needs to be developed if the Rebellion wishes to propagate 4k. I am ignoring DCI/J2K as I am under the impression that it is too computationally intensive, particularly on the client side. If someone out there like Jason R. knows better I stand to be corrected - of course he may wish to tout Cineform solutions.

In any case the best "live" tap off the RedOne may be dual-link 4:4:4 HD-SDI for the foreseeable future but if I can process and show 4k rushes within a few minutes of capture in a van at the edge of the set I think that is a value add I can sell to producers, directors and DoPs.

 

[Rob Lohman]

I heard that the RED demo at NAB used a fast (expensive) server and 8 lanes of HD-SDI to feed the Sony SXRD 4k projector.

We used a KG box connected to the Sony 4K projector. The projector takes an input board for each 2K quadrant. You can choose between HD-SDI or DVI. I think we used HD-SDI.

 

[M Most]

Would that be Mike Most out of Florida asking?

Yup (formerly of L.A.).

It also begs the question of whether "uncompressed" offers a big enough quality premium over wavelet and other advanced codecs to justify its overhead.

That's the question of the moment on a lot of levels, monitoring being one.

I am ignoring DCI/J2K as I am under the impression that it is too computationally intensive, particularly on the client side. If someone out there like Jason R. knows better I stand to be corrected - of course he may wish to tout Cineform solutions.

It's not too intensive if you're using a digital cinema server. Not everything is designed around low end desktop PC's, and in general, I don't see a lot of compelling reasons for 4K playback on a desktop other than to say you can do it. When and if it becomes simpler to do it, sure, there might be some added value - but I really have my doubts as to whether most people want to watch high resolution motion pictures on their computers. 4K is meant for very large screens, where its capabilities have real impact. The smaller the screen, the less the significance.

In any case the best "live" tap off the RedOne may be dual-link 4:4:4 HD-SDI for the foreseeable future but if I can process and show 4k rushes within a few minutes of capture in a van at the edge of the set I think that is a value add I can sell to producers, directors and DoPs.

Perhaps. Good, solid answers to my questions, though. Thanks.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Okay, sorry for the stupid question, but I can't find this anywhere. On the HDMI out port, will Red supply audio on that HDMI connect? I know audio can travel down an HDMI. If so, then I'd only have to have one line running from camera to VV, a big ass HDMI.

Second, in regards to wireless HDMI, I can't find that Philips for sale anywhere. Does anyone have an ETA on it? I also looked at the Gefen one. It's twice as expensive and looks twice as bulky. I read in another thread that the Gefen guy is going to try to get the size down, well that's great whenever that happens.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I've asked that same question, Shawn (audio on the HDMI port). But I don't think it was ever answered. If it was, I missed it. I think the ability to send out audio over the HDMI feed would be a nice feature.

I haven't seen the Philips wireless HDMI anywhere yet either.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Wait a second here...several people have now said they are going to use the Blackmagic HDLink to monitor in 1080p from the dual link HD-SDI. But on the Red website it says "No" under HD-SDI for all the Redcode options! What the heck? Can i not be filming in 4k Redcode and also be simultaneously monitoring in 1080p 4:4:4 out the dual link HD-SDI?

 

[Rob Lohman]

As far as I know the HD-SDI should be live. I think the diagram tries to indicate that you can't record 2K or 4K over HD-SDI. It will always be 720 (single link port) or 1080 (dual-link).

The person that knows this for sure is Stuart...

 

[Steve Gibby]

Okay, sorry for the stupid question, but I can't find this anywhere. On the HDMI out port, will Red supply audio on that HDMI connect? I know audio can travel down an HDMI. If so, then I'd only have to have one line running from camera to VV, a big ass HDMI.

HDMI - 720p video plus audio without graphics.

Stuart English
1/28/07
REDUser
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48&page=8

 

[Steve Gibby]

Wait a second here...several people have now said they are going to use the Blackmagic HDLink to monitor in 1080p from the dual link HD-SDI. But on the Red website it says "No" under HD-SDI for all the Redcode options! What the heck? Can i not be filming in 4k Redcode and also be simultaneously monitoring in 1080p 4:4:4 out the dual link HD-SDI?

"The phrase “Dual-link HD-SDI” can mean one or both of two things - RED can support both.

a) Use of two links to provide 4:4:4 RGB monitoring at 1080p or -
b) Two duplicate outputs of 4:2:2 YUV (Y,Cr,Cb) at 720p or 1080i or 1080p."

Stuart English
2/6/07
REDUser
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=444&page=19


"3. You can also use the Dual-Link HD-SDI output for 1080p monitoring. For 4:2:2 color space, only one link of the Dual-Link is necessary. (The 1080p/60 format is supported under SMPTE dual link specs .....)"

Stuart English
1/18/07
REDUser
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48&page=9




"1. Only the LCD and EVF display full camera GUI including surround view and audio levels and frame markers and other graphics. If you want exactly this on-set then you could remote the LCD output. Another approach could be - read camera stutus over usb/wi-fi, ingest the HDMI output into a Black Magic card and build your own P.C video village.

2. HDMI/HDSDI monitoring outputs are fixed at 720p. This is because 720p is the only single link HDSDI video format that allows us to show every frame rate up through 60fps (or 120fps).

3. You can also use the Dual-Link HD-SDI output for 1080p monitoring. For 4:2:2 color space, only one link of the Dual-Link is necessary. (The 1080p/60 format is supported under SMPTE dual link specs .....)

4. The HDMI and HD-SDI monitoring outputs support 50p / 60p. (Recheck your Panasonic / JVC LCD - the Panny W models all have 50/60)

5. What then do these monitor outputs display when the camera is running at 'non-standard' frame rates? If shooting at 25fps, do these monitor outputs use a form of pulldown to pad the frames up to 50p - Yes. If shooting at 24 fps will they pad the frames up to 60 fps - Yes. If shooting at 120fps, do these monitor outputs simply display every other frame at 60p - Yes."

Stuart English
1/18/07
REDUser
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48&page=9




"There are four independent monitor outputs...

EVF - 720p video with look around, frame markers and other graphics.

LCD - 720p video with look around, fame markers and other graphics.

HDMI - 720p video plus audio without graphics.

HDSI - 720p video plus audio without graphics.

Note - The monitor HDSI is independent of the Dual Link HDSI, which supports a wide range of HD formats and frame rates."

Stuart English
1/28/07
REDUser
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48&page=8


(Gibby note: the LCD itself has been confirmed as being 1024x600 resolution)

------------------------------


As I remember, in other threads Stuart mentioned that all monitor output taps are "live" when shooting (EVF, LCD, and HD-SDI), and he also mentioned that when you were shooting REDCODE RAW, the camera would provide a realtime RGB output to the monitoring taps. For color presentation on the preview taps, the camera provides an auto white balance, which is user updateable as light changes. You can dig out the references and links to this, but I believe it is correct.

As with everything until the camera is locked down, it's subject to possible change, even though it was stated on forums.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

It takes a village?

It takes a village?

Thanks Gibby for taking the time to recap the monitoring options per Stuart's actual posts. Your disclaimer about specs not being locked down seems wise, especially since the early units will/may not be fully feature enabled and we even had a major board replacement post-NAB.

Throughout the dev on this system I have tried to design bulletproof on-set solutions that take into account current infrastructure while embracing the new paradigm that the RED system enables. Just like the camera my version of "video village" continues to evolve.

I will use the Dodge branded Mercedes Benz built Sprinter van as the traveling platform. It gets 27/mpg and will run on bio-diesel. The form factor lends itself to the mobile color grading suite I want to include as a value add to the camera system.

When having the camera tethered is feasible I hope to use some version of HD-SDI direct from the RedOne to an AJA/Mac/RAID recording system in addition to the RedDrives. Why? I hope to offer immediate playback of takes and have a fail-safe 1080 copy to calm nervous producers. Is this overkill? Probably.

I believe in the tech, I really do BUT - I am not the one that NEEDS to believe. In order to make it easier for producers to greenlight tech they have no prior experience with I want to offer a hybrid workflow. I want to be able to point at the HD-SDI tap going onto disk and the RedDrive mounted on the RedOne and explain that we are getting two full raster HD (or better) copies simultaneously. That even without dozens of previous projects as evidence that the odds of both of them crapping out at the same time are far less than the chance of tape/film jams.

Whether it is a crutch or a necessity (insert your bias here) the expectation of immediate playback of takes on set exists. Unless I am missing something, all of the on-board storage options on the RedOne require you to dismount the device and hook it up to a computer in order to review footage. While the DP may need to be lighting the next shot, the director or some producer or the scripty or somebody may want to vet the most recent take before wrapping an actor or set just in case they missed something during the live viewing.

I actually think a Wafian or similar device might be an excellent option for what might be referred to as the redundant 1080 protocol. Am I advocating that all productions need to do this - NO. For a lot of projects you can just sneakernet your RedDrive over to the laptop to review footage or simply roll a safety take or just trust you drilled the shot and that nothing horrible will happen to the media before you can copy it.

IMHO the biggest hurdle in the first year or two the RedOne is in the field is perceptions, CYA issues, bonding and insurance rider language, etc. To be realistic, no matter how much I might trust the RedTeam, any new product has a higher likelihood of bugs the first year which makes the "redundant 1080 protocol" (maybe I should try and slogan-mark that phrase, its "that hot" :biggrin: ) a bigger draw.

I believe its a Viper/s.two workflow that has been modified to include a custom piece of tech that takes the incoming data stream and manages it for you. It creates two copies then verifies them, it processes a lower res version for editorial and requires no DIT. Once more machine puts man out of work :shiftyph34r: .

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Unless I am missing something, all of the on-board storage options on the RedOne require you to dismount the device and hook it up to a computer in order to review footage.

Whoa!! I was under the impression that when using the Reddrive that you could select clips (such as last take or three takes ago) to view again in both the LCD/EVF and monitor and HD-SDI outs. I'd sure be bummed if they didn't, I can't afford to spring for an HDCAM deck at this point.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Whoa!! I was under the impression that when using the Reddrive that you could select clips (such as last take or three takes ago) to view again in both the LCD/EVF and monitor and HD-SDI outs. I'd sure be bummed if they didn't, I can't afford to spring for an HDCAM deck at this point.

That can't be right... There has to be a way to review clips from the camera. In fact I think Stuart or Rob said we could a while back. I don't think we'll be able to delete on-board the camera due to concerns over fragmentation.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Don't quote me ;-)

Don't quote me ;-)

My bad. Playback on camera from the RedDrive has been stated by the RedTeam in the past. So I assume that means that the RedCode RAW is decoded and sent out for monitoring by the camera - impressive tech.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Does anyone have any good recommendations for good places to get heavy duty carts to use for video village? I supposed I could start with a strong metal cart with beefy wheels and have a good welder start customizing it, and I probably will have a degree of customizing to do, but the closer I can start to something that could carry a Mac, several large LCDs, etc, would be cool.

 

[Ralph Oshiro]

We use the Kart-a-Bag Kartmaster HD500S at work, and keep one in each van. The thing I don't like about them is that they're heavy. But the big thing I DO like about the Kart-a-Bag carts, is that they fold up much smaller than a Magliner.

Kart-a-Bag site (scroll all the way to the bottom of the page for the HD500S)

But check out some of the carts at filmtools.com. I just checked, and they have a lot of production carts that may be more appropriate to your needs.

 

[Mark Hassenger]

http://filmtools.com/equipmentcarts.html

I've bought a lot of items from Filmtools, very helpful sales dept. for custom applications.

 

[Chris Parker]

Also, check out backstage. they have good magliner modifications for film.

http://www.backstageweb.com/

 

[Ken Willinger]

Those are some good options. I use the Kartmaster as well, though not for video village use. But I do travel with it extensively and it is very rugged. The airlines destroyed my Magliner, that's when I switched to the Kartmaster.

 

[chuck colburn]

Does anyone have any good recommendations for good places to get heavy duty carts to use for video village? I supposed I could start with a strong metal cart with beefy wheels and have a good welder start customizing it, and I probably will have a degree of customizing to do, but the closer I can start to something that could carry a Mac, several large LCDs, etc, would be cool.

Hey Shawn,

Just recieved the B&H catalog and there are a selection in it.
The Steadicam guys are cart freaks and there are some threads over at their site.

Chuck