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Red One Sensor Failure rate

C

CHRIS HOOKE

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Hi,

I've had a Red One sensor failure recently (very thin blue vertical lines, similar to film scratching) on a Red which has had very little use. It is now out of warranty. The Red technicians really don't know what's caused it. They have suggested extreme heat conditions or a laser pointed into the sensor, both of which hasn't happened. I'll now upgrade to an MX Sensor - that's all I can do.
I've asked Red what the sensor failure rate is as I'm alarmed they are only giving the new MX sensor 3 months warranty. They will not disclose any figures. They say the 3 month warranty is standard. I say if they were confident enough the warranty would be longer.

My question is this. Are there any stats on sensor failure? I see quite a few posts about sensor problems but it's pretty impossible to gauge from this.

Many thanks.
 
Thin blue lines is an overheating sensor. You might have a faulty heatsink. Either way, it's win-win as you get an upgraded sensor and they have a look inside to fix the problem.

EDIT: You could just do an out-of-warranty repair, which would be a couple hundred dollars plus freight, then if it is really a damaged sensor and not a heat management issue maybe RED can hold on to the camera and do an MX upgrade for you?)

The MX upgrade program is now roughly in the 1500s serial-number wise (of course not all cameras are being upgraded) and has been running for over 90 days. How many posts have you seen regarding sensor failures along these lines?

EDIT: You aren't by any chance this Chris Hooke, are you? http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0393608/
 
Going to agree with Cail here. And this is something that happens very rarely. Chances are that if your camera was used more regularly, the issue may have presented itself sooner and would have been fixable under warranty. If you know for sure that your camera was never subjected to extreme heat conditions while operating, then that is a good indication of there being some other issue -- thermal management in the form of heatsink and/or heat sensors inside the camera and related to the sensor block.

RED giving a 90-day warranty on a professional product, and on an upgrade to a used system, is pretty remarkable, IMO. Sure, I would love more too, but that's pretty good and not just for cameras, but for any type of high-dollar professional equipment. When you receive your repaired/upgraded camera back from RED. Be sure to test it thoroughly and report any issues right away.
 
Have to disagree with the moderators here - 90 days didn't sound standard to me (can't remember what the official warranty was on my Betacams - last procam I bought new other than RED1 206 - but it sure seems like Sony would have taken care of anything for much longer than 90 days) so I just punched into my google box "Panasonic Varicam Warranty" to see what came up. Here it is:

"With none of the moving parts used by tape or disc-based cameras, the VariCam 3700 is ultra reliable with resistant to shock, vibration, extreme environments and weather conditions. The camera's solid-state design means no worrying about overheating, condensation or freezing, only reliable performance when you need it. The VariCam 3700 is also backed by a 5-year limited warranty (1-year regular, plus 4 years extended upon registration)."

5 years on their solid-state (i.e. no tape deck) camera - which by the way would be pretty comparable to a REDONE.

Not trying to crap on RED but 90 days seems a bit short, particularly if a new company is trying to establish a reputation for reliable pro products - and it seems a stretch to paint a $5500 upgrade (when the same sensor in an S35 scarlet is supposed to be $7K) as a "win-win" for Mr. Hooke - particularly when he only resets the warranty by another 90 days.
 
Checked Sony:
http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/services/files/servicesprograms/ProductWarranty.pdf

and most cameras are as follows
Labor one year:
Parts:
One (1) year One (1) year, except CCD Prism Block Assembly, which is warranted for two (2) years (emphasis added)

Examples:

• PDW-500 Series SD Cameras
• PDW-700 HD 422 Camera
• PDW-F800 HD422
• Labor • Parts
One (1) year One (1) year except a) CCD Block which is warranted for two (2) years and b) the Optical Drive System which consists of the BRD-P1, BRD-P2, BRD-P100 assemblies, optical laser block, loader and seek motor which are warranted for seven (7) years parts & labor.

• PDW-F300 Series HD Cameras
• Labor • Parts
Two (2) years Two (2) years

Martin Weiss said:
90 days warranty is standard for any professional equipment. The 1 year warranty that RED gives on new cameras is yet another case of generosity.
Click to expand...


Martin:

Why would you throw that out there when it obviously isn't the case? Took me less than 3 minutes to come up with this.
 
Red warranty sub standard

Red warranty sub standard

Martin Weiss said:
90 days warranty is standard for any professional equipment. The 1 year warranty that RED gives on new cameras is yet another case of generosity.
Click to expand...

I second that.

Pansonic gives a standard 5 year warranty on all P2 based cameras and Sony
gives 1 year that you can easily extend to three years for about $300.

Plus the Red warranty only applies only to the original owner - as if somehow the equipment gets jinxed when changing owners.

Red certainly makes groundbreaking cameras but their warranty is pretty much the worst I have ever seen.
 
Yeah, but what warranty do others offer on repairs? What about on upgrades? Oh, yeah... I don't know if they even have a policy for upgrades.

Panasonic is the only one out there offering more than a single year without purchasing additional extended warranties on these pro cameras. Most extended warranties out there do not transfer if you sell your gear. RED's warranty comparisons and many of us here, are relating to other cinema cameras and not HD cameras. I suppose it's a grey area and all subjective as to where certain cameras may fall and how their warranties should work. Panasonic considers their 4 years extra upon registration to be an "extended warranty". I don't know if it transfers or not though and I haven't looked into it. In the USA, federal law requires that warranties on consumer-grade products will transfer with the product to a new owner. However, RED is not sold as a consumer-grade or retail item. Items sold as "professional equipment" carry no such requirements. RED gives us full one-year warranty on the camera from the date of purchase. 90-days applies to upgrades and also repairs made if the camera is out of warranty or if the 90-days would extend beyond the original one year. The camera can be sent in to RED at any time for evaluation and a tune-up and a 90-day warranty can be issued then. Obviously, the check-up and warranty are not free, but it exists.

Many people have asked about purchasing extended warranties for the cameras. It would indeed be nice if RED would offer this option.

My two complaints about RED warranties are:

1> The warranty on media. It's 90-days from the date of purchase. For the mechanical HDD based RED Drives, I think this is acceptable. But for the CF cards and especially the RED-RAM, I really think they should offer a 1-year or better warranty. Most professional FLASH products on the market such as P2 media, "enterprise-class" SSDs and more all have 3 to 5 year warranties standard. I've never flinched at the 90-day warranty on the RED-RAMs. Sure it would make me feel better to have longer warranties on a $4500 item, but those things are bullet-proof. I've owned a few of them and have put them through hell and they just work.

2> Warranty transfer. I understand RED's reasoning for not transferring the warranties. However, I think if the ownership transfer is completed properly and the camera is sent in for evaluation (which is an option), the remainder of the original warranty should be transferable, not just an option to purchase a 90-day warranty.

Anyway, I would really like to see RED offer up extended warranty plans and some better warranty offerings for the camera media. The upcoming 1.8" SSDs are priced in-line with the latest P2 cards and other types of performance media on the market. They are technically superior in terms of performance and marketed as being superior. It would be nice to see warranties to match.
 
90 days absolutely SUCKS. PERIOD.

I understand Red is trying to run a business - but what happens to this gentleman's business when equipment fails and he loses a client/job? There should be a special subrental program or something in place for emergencies where if an MX camera body goes down (which I keep my fingers crossed won't ever happen) There is a temporary loaner available at deep discount while the owner's camera is in for repair/replacement.

You should run your camera for three to five days straight on AC power once you get it back pointed at something continuously in movement to "burn it in."

Don't waste your time getting the old sensor. Spend the money and get the MX but USE THE HELL OUT OF IT.

Don't let your camera sit in a box. It doesn't like that.
 
Warranties are like insurance, the more statistics you have, the better you can determine the right warranty period and then roll that into the price of the product.
 
Thank you all for those comments. Yes, my feeling is 90 days is not good enough. I think Jeff's thoughts re: extended warranty are good.
Hi Cail, yes, that's me. Getting a bit old in the tooth for all this now. Thx your comments.
michael, you saved me some trouble, I was going to check that myself.
The reason the Red hasn't been used is I have always shot with Aatons (still have 2). I hated Betacam type stuff and thought the Red would be a digital Aaton replacement, using my Super 16mm lenses. But the Red was ginormous something I didn't expect, and add in power consumption, a heavy post etc etc. And there are questions as to whether it's suited to 2K shooting anyway.
So it's been used a bit by my nephew in Sydney for the odd advertisement. I honestly have no idea if he's subjected the camera to excessive heat. He's careful so i think not.
The fact is I think for my type of shooting in isolated places in weird countries the Red is not suitable. That's not the fault of Red, that's the nature of the beast.
So I'll be selling the Red if anyone is interested !
 
Mike Gross said:
Warranties are like insurance, the more statistics you have, the better you can determine the right warranty period and then roll that into the price of the product.
Click to expand...

Very true.

Also there was another comment made to this thread, but the poster deleted it, and it was a valid point as well that goes along with the above. Company X may offer a 5 year warranty, but what is the overall cost of their product in relation to what it does? Perhaps we are paying for that product several times over within its purchase price.

Warranties are really a form of marketing more than they are a plan for insurance or reliability.

Some of the comments on this thread are a bit off, I think. The loaner cameras seems a bit silly at face value, but this is actually something that has been done by RED in the early days of the program. There are so many RED Ones out there now, finding a backup RED is a whole lot easier than replacing a Varicam or F900 if one of those go down on a shoot, which also happens and tends to happen a whole lot more in my experiences.

I still think 90-days is too short for the FLASH media warranties. But I don't really understand any of the other complaints about 90-day periods. Who else in the industry gives additional warranties of 90-days or more on repairs and upgrades? Who else even offers upgrades?

There are already third-party warranty products out there that will cover RED One cameras. It's jus that RED doesn't offer them. I don't see how that is any different than most any other camera makers. Most extended warranty products on the market are offered by third-parties and are more of an insurance policy than an actual warranty. Even those offered through other camera makers are typically underwritten by a third-party -- read the fine print. Which also brings up insurance coverage anyway. Don't you guys have insurance that covers you if a camera dies in the middle of a shoot?
 
I thought 90 days was NFG as well but a well experienced fella I had a chat with told me that was indeed standard for professional gear cos it get's put through its paces.

On another note, when I was growing up in South Africa we had a fella come in and tell us about law and apparently if there is no warranty then a manufactured good has to- by law- operate for its intended purpose for three years and a warranty is the manufacturers way of getting out of it. The lawyer was trying to illustrate that when people advertise a 2-year warranty it's not actually that great a thing, they're actually selling you short of what your rights would ordinarily be.

He was one of the only cool lawyers I've ever met, him and the fella I met who was the lawyer for those hippies in Nimbun in Australia defending their shenanigans in the 70's, he was cool too.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Very true.

There are so many RED Ones out there now, finding a backup RED is a whole lot easier than replacing a Varicam or F900 if one of those go down on a shoot, which also happens and tends to happen a whole lot more in my experiences.

Well, that's true. And one can always take a spare body, which is what we do most of the time in isolated places. I've been lucky with Sony & Panasonic, never had one go down, even in the most awful conditions. I think the Red is a bit daunting to someone like myself who hasn't taken the time to get to know it. One look on the forums here scared the bejesus out of me as far as taking the Red anywhere isolated. But that may be true of all electronic stuff. The only thing I ever worried about with the Aaton, apart from the usual, was timecode loss. But these complex digital cameras are another ball-game altogether. But that's the way it is.
I think Red has priced their equipment very keenly and so perhaps moaning over the warranty is perhaps a bit unfair. Pretty annoying if something fails at 4 months instead of 2 months and 29 days though.
My tip for the day ..... I just got through shooting something on a Panasonic 502 P2 Card system. Worst camera I ever used. Don't touch them. The results are HORRIBLE.
Click to expand...
 
Thomas Wright said:
I thought 90 days was NFG as well but a well experienced fella I had a chat with told me that was indeed standard for professional gear cos it get's put through its paces.
Click to expand...

How can you say that when in my previous post I not only pointed out Panasonic and Sony exampless but gave a link to Sony's page showing virtually all of their pro cameras having one year parts and labor on the whole thing and 2 year warranties on the sensor - which is the problem the OP had.


Jeff Kilgroe said:
Very true.

Company X may offer a 5 year warranty, but what is the overall cost of their product in relation to what it does? Perhaps we are paying for that product several times over within its purchase price.

Warranties are really a form of marketing more than they are a plan for insurance or reliability.
Click to expand...

Jeff, as you pointed out Panasonic considers their 5 year warranty an extended on but it appears that all you have to do is register it and that seems like they are just trying to get a handle on who the customer is since they sell through dealers rather than direct like RED.

As far as paying for the product several times over - that is the norm. Standard manufacturing markup to the retail sell price is about 4x actual materials and labor cost. Some commodity items will be closer to 2x but given the relatively low volume, and since Jim is a pretty savvy businessman, I suspect RED is in that same ballpark too.

The difference between a manufacturer's warranty and aftermarket is that the manufacturer has drastically lower costs, plus a reputation to uphold, so they often have a greater ability to take care of the customer. Aftermarkets are truly insurance policies, with the same potential problems of getting repair/replacement approved, the companies failing, etc.

Given the startup nature and the complexity of the REDONE project, I don't judge the short warranty term too harshly - but I think it is an area they should address in the future.
 
Maybe I'm stating the obvious (particularly to this audience), but whatever your stance is on RED's warranty policies, you have to agree that their post-sale support more than makes up for it. Not just firmware/software upgrades, but also things like the free audio board replacement. We were really happy with the support we got from them a while back when Build 20 spawned the "sata_trans_fault."

The point is, regardless of warranty coverage, they've generally done the right thing in backing up their product after the sale. I'm not sure if I'd expect the same from Sony or Panasonic.
 
Michael Hastings said:
How can you say that when in my previous post I not only pointed out Panasonic and Sony exampless but gave a link to Sony's page showing virtually all of their pro cameras having one year parts and labor on the whole thing and 2 year warranties on the sensor - which is the problem the OP had.

.
Click to expand...


My bad, didn't see that sorry. 5 years is off the charts
 
I got a fella call in say he's got a red dot every now and then, I thought it was dead pixel cept for the every now and then part, anyone heard of this?
 
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