RED ONE now or SCARLET Idontnowwhen?

[lopez]

Should I get a RED ONE camera now for my documentary knowing the Scarlet is coming or should I wait for the Scartlet FF35 and pay less to have more but having maybe some bad surprises, like the unknown release of the Scarlet ? Knowing I want to shot in January...

 

[Noah Kadner]

Why not plan to rent? It's anyone's guess if Scarlet will be around by then. I'd guess not or at least not in big quantities. But a Red One is a big investment. If it's just for a single show, you should have no problem finding a rental. And it would allow you some time to decide.

Noah

 

[ryan castañeda]

Im having a similar dilemma, I want a scarlet 2/3, but I think Im going to have to go with the 7D for now, I figure that Im not going to be able to get a scarlet in my hands until early next year- I wish I could afford a red, but thats just not in the stars for me- you know what, if the scarlet does come out before the end of the year, and I can get one, after all the red one owners get theirs, then I will just have to sell the 7D and upgrade- I feel like thats a conservative approach

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

Can I please ask, how much is the rental prices in the US. I just read that it's about $1000 per day in Denmark for a full Red-kit.

 

[Stephen Gentle]

Why not plan to rent? It's anyone's guess if Scarlet will be around by then. I'd guess not or at least not in big quantities. But a Red One is a big investment. If it's just for a single show, you should have no problem finding a rental. And it would allow you some time to decide.

Noah

This is probably the best idea. You really can't bank on Scarlet being available in January, because even if it does ship then, there are going to be a lot of people (RED ONE owners) who all get first dibs, and then given production ramp up times, it could be a long time before you get one.

 

[lopez]

Why not plan to rent? It's anyone's guess if Scarlet will be around by then. I'd guess not or at least not in big quantities. But a Red One is a big investment. If it's just for a single show, you should have no problem finding a rental. And it would allow you some time to decide.
Noah

I thought of that, but I'm going to film for at least two month, and here, in Geneva, Switzerland, renting a Red One with the base kit is around 700 $ per day. In two month I'm close to 30'000$ with the discounts... I can't spend that much money without having my own camera.

 

[Gerald Menclik]

maybe you should think of buying or renting another cam - like an EX1 or 3 or something similar???

 

[Vladimir Eugene]

If you have the budget for renting for 30,000 than buying a Red 25,000 simple accessories and lenses.

Trading up to the Epic 10,000 plus 5,000 accesories. Buying into an Epic for 40,000 is definitely a better option to renting for 30,000.

 

[Scott Miller]

I decided that buying a Red now was better for me. I have been waiting as long as anyone else (on the sidelines) for the Scarlet.

Although I do not have a "paying" gig, I do have lots of opportunities to shoot. And I have (well, had, now that I ordered most everything ) the money to do it. I can try something, look over the results and try it again. If I rent, not really easy to work on the tech or craft "as needed".

I was waiting for the Scarlet, but I NOW have to ability to use the Red in production environment. And I will have the ability to upgrade to the Epic if I start getting some cash flow from the Red. If not, I will still have the Red and ability to shoot with an amazing tool.

That being said, I am in a somewhat unique position being able to do this, even with in the limited budget. Although I had a great couple of hours yesterday with a felllow Red owner who, although on a much larger scale, is following a similar path.

YMMV.

 

[Joe G.]

Some pros here consider using a large sensor camera like the R1 to be impossible for a run and gun documentary situation. You won't have much in focus. Something to consider.

 

[Scott Miller]

Wrong thread, sorry

 

[rod bradley]

I would second Joe G and caution on trying to use the Red on a run and gun type of documentary -- of course it depends on the nature of the doc, if it really is run and gun, what size crew you have and many other factors. Not least of which is the intent for theatrical release -- and will having 4K quality be a selling point. I sometimes use my Red for quick and even handheld shoots and it is doable, of course -- but I don't think of it as a close intimate people oriented documentary camera. (For nature and footage that requires huge nature detail, it is superb.) But it does require time, it is hefty, it is't the easiest run and gun camera out there. (I've also used the EX1 a lot, much friendly doc camera and really, superb quality. Not Red, but very very good.)


Normally here in the States, you would get a huge break on a long term rental -- apparently not over there. But I would advise trying to use the camera in the kind of situation(s) you anticipate before committing either to purchase or long term rental.

 

[Emiliano Ranzani]

I thought of that, but I'm going to film for at least two month, and here, in Geneva, Switzerland, renting a Red One with the base kit is around 700 $ per day. In two month I'm close to 30'000$ with the discounts... I can't spend that much money without having my own camera.

Honestly, do you really need the RedOne for this? What is more important, the camera or your project? I think you can get something very good with all the other tools the market currently offers.

I keep seeying more and more people desperate in order to purchase the Red cameras for their project (or even just for the sake of it!) and I must say that is wrong in my eyes: while I take off my hat to the Red Company for it's marketing skills (mostly based on the actual quality of what they created, unlike most of their rivals), I think you shouldn't be hipnotized by the hype surrounding it and simply be realistic.

There's nothing wrong if you can't afford the camera right now: someday you may will - in the meantime, keep doing what you have to do with what you have access to.

Besides, as others have pointed out, a big-sensor camera like the Red-One can be a pain in the ass for run-and-gun or documentary shoots: after all, how many of these things used to be shot in 35mm?

If you can wait, a 2\3 inches Scarlet might be good for it - even though, it really depends who is funding the project (are you putting up the money for it or do you have clients\producers?).

 

[lopez]

Thank you all for the advices,
I'm getting sponsoring for the doc, but you're maybe right Emiliano, I'm too focus on having a Red One without really considering the other options... EX3 is one of them, I never worked with it, but I heard a lot of good things about it, do you have any other suggestions?
Maybe the right thing to do is to film with another camera till the scarlet shows up...

 

[Eki Halkka]

EX3 is one of them, I never worked with it, but I heard a lot of good things about it, do you have any other suggestions?

You could buy a notch cheaper semipro HDV camera like Canon XH-A1, which will actually give rather similar image quality as EX3, but leave you with much more money saved for your Scarlet...

 

[Roberto B]

you have strange ideas halsu.. w/ a $1695 s35 sensor & a superior codec close.. you go w/ a 2/3 years old hdv camera?

btw.. all.. me said almost all.. ex3/5d2 bi-owners recognize the superiority of 5d2 in everything or almost everything..

throw the towel man.
where have me heard this?! :001_huh:

 

[Rick Presas]

Some pros here consider using a large sensor camera like the R1 to be impossible for a run and gun documentary situation. You won't have much in focus. Something to consider.

I agree with this. Why dont you consider the Panasonic HVX/HPX/HMC family? Canons XHA1 is also very viable. Sony's Z7u too.

 

[Eki Halkka]

you have strange ideas halsu.. w/ a $1695 s35 sensor & a superior codec close.. you go w/ a 2/3 years old hdv camera?

For a real documentary production, i'd choose a 1/3" "semipro" camera over a video enabled DSLR any day.

- usable form factor
- usable audio (with XLR inputs, phantom power etc.)
- usable viewfinder/LCD (and the all necessary zebra, audio levels etc.)
- 20x motorized zoom lens with good stabilization
- proper image control
- proper connections (for monitoring etc.)
- proper frame rates (i need 25p or 50i)
- manageable DOF for run-n-gun (no, in real life ultra-shallow DOF isn't always desirable)
- ease of editing (HDV is much easier on the editing systems than h264)
- HDV uses tape. Yes, tape is good. You always have a backup of all your footage.

btw.. all.. me said almost all.. ex3/5d2 bi-owners recognize the superiority of 5d2 in everything or almost everything..

For shooting artsy test films, sure, for real production work... well, not so sure. And anyway, 30p frame rate makes it pretty much unusable for anything other than web work outside NTSC countries.

throw the towel man.
where have me heard this?! :001_huh:

Nope, i won't throw the towel just yet. HDV is plenty good for TV broadcast, which is the main target for documentary work.

 

[Emiliano Ranzani]

Thank you all for the advices,
I'm getting sponsoring for the doc, but you're maybe right Emiliano, I'm too focus on having a Red One without really considering the other options... EX3 is one of them, I never worked with it, but I heard a lot of good things about it, do you have any other suggestions?
Maybe the right thing to do is to film with another camera till the scarlet shows up...

In the last year I've been working a lot with the EX1 (and I briefly played with the EX3 just last week - bottom line: they're the same camera in different shapes, kinda like the DSMC system but without the possibility of switching brains and modules).

The XDCAM EX are quiet nice cameras. Not in the same league as the REDONE of course but they do offer better performances than HDV and, in my opinion, the HVX200 - I know I am gonna get bashed for the last statement, but, despite having a lower bit-rate, the EXs have bigger and brighter sensors and the final image looks richer than the Panasonic (always in my opinion, of course).

I would stay away from any DSLR with video mode: as anyone would tell you, codecs like H264 are for final distribution (Internet-only, I would add), not for image gathering.

I can tell you that the Sony Z7 looks promising: I did a quick test with it last year and I was pleasantly surprised by it. It's still 1\3'' sensor- based, but the stock lens it comes with is mighty good and the camera does both tape and SD cards.

What is the size of your project?

 

[Johannes Kuhr]

Is there anyone, who knows a current date for the release of the SCARLET? I read: End of the year. But which month? November? End of December?
My university wants to buy two this year ( =for 3D-Stereoscopy), because they must invest their money.