RED One MX or Scarlet X?

[Sean Talbott]

For some time now I've been debating which camera to buy as a I prepare to move to Los Angeles to pursue the owner/operator/DOP profession. The Scarlet seems tempting, it's modular, hot on the market because it's new, and in my review of all the footage its skipped no beats in retaining the RED quality we've all come to love. Although, it lacks those greater frame rates which could easily prevent the rental of an epic or phantom cam for a day. Complete RED One MX packages, ready to shoot out of the box, can be had at around $16,000-$18,000, while accoring to my calcuation a base scarlet x package is gonna run me around $23,000. The R1 seems more appealing to me because of price, and its been proven tirelessly on features, shorts, commercials, music vids, and television shows, while I haven't seen evidence yet as to how the industry will embrace the Scarlet X.


My questions to the forum viewers, which camera will get me on my way quicker to getting work as an owner/operator/DOP in Los Angeles. Which camera is being rented more? I'd love to hear from people in the city who are owner operators, their opinions and how they go about getting work. Thanks all!

 

[Rob Ruffo]

R1= Better performance in general, access to cheap media via hard drives which have never failed us, not once. R1s are still used on some high-end sets. R1 has wider field of view (4K:16:9 is more field of view and more resolution than 4K:HD) and many totally useable slo-mo modes.
Scarlet = lighter camera - thats' the only advantage really, until Dragon comes, and price for Dragon upgrade for Scarlet will be more than $6000, we don;t yet know the exact price

r1 perceived as battle-tested reliable high-end camera by clients
Scarlet perceived as "junior version" and "student version" of Epic (hey don;t blast me, I am only reporting what I hear). You could not show up to a top-budget prod with a Scarlet except as a b-cam. AN r1, still, and maybe forever, yes. Many Hollywood prods have used R1s and Epics, NONE have used Scarlets as their main cam as they just rent an Epic- thus how perception is created.

 

[Sean Talbott]

This is great feedback Rob, thank you. I'm certainly trending towards an R1 MX package!

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Sean, I assume you have committed to buying a camera, as opposed to using rented gear on a production by production basis? I only ask because I find that there are so many different cameras and formats being used and unless you are highly experienced with a lot of pull, you don't always get to choose the camera being used. So, in some ways owning may not be an advantage. Obviously for those jobs that want a RED you would be in a position to use your gear and get the kit rental, but even then it's not a given. What are your main reasons for owning the camera? Not trying to be a downer, just curious.

 

[Jon Shaw]

I had the same decision to make last Nov, the one massive advantage of Scarlet is the fact that it is upgradeable. R1 not. Also if you have a job that requires high frame rates rent an Epic.

 

[Sean Talbott]

Steve, you're in no way being a downer, and I appreciate any feedback I get on here! I'm certainly leaning towards the purchase of another camera. I own a 5d Mark II package, but feel the need to upgrade to a more professional tool. I also see an upgrade as a way to get more work in Los Angeles. Of course, I know there are more entities to getting work than to own a camera, I'm just hoping that a more professional camera will increase the likelihood of getting hired, while simultaneously upping the caliber of such gigs. I'm just starting out in the industry, as I've spent the last 3 years getting a masters degree in cinematography, so it's needless to say I haven't yet reached a point where I can call the shots as far as what camera is used. I've always been a camera owner, and I think very simply it creates more appeal to producers working on lower budget prods to hire a DOP/owner/operator who has the same talent as someone who doesn't own a camera. This, of course, is assuming that I'll be starting out working on low/no/deferred payment productions that require the camera I am potentially going to buy. Just thinking out loud here...

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Steve, you're in no way being a downer, and I appreciate any feedback I get on here! I'm certainly leaning towards the purchase of another camera. I own a 5d Mark II package, but feel the need to upgrade to a more professional tool. I also see an upgrade as a way to get more work in Los Angeles. Of course, I know there are more entities to getting work than to own a camera, I'm just hoping that a more professional camera will increase the likelihood of getting hired, while simultaneously upping the caliber of such gigs. I'm just starting out in the industry, as I've spent the last 3 years getting a masters degree in cinematography, so it's needless to say I haven't yet reached a point where I can call the shots as far as what camera is used. I've always been a camera owner, and I think very simply it creates more appeal to producers working on lower budget prods to hire a DOP/owner/operator who has the same talent as someone who doesn't own a camera. This, of course, is assuming that I'll be starting out working on low/no/deferred payment productions that require the camera I am potentially going to buy. Just thinking out loud here...

I'm not a DP but I do work with a lot of them, so take this with a grain of salt. DPs seem to get hired based on a few things. Their reel, their style, their connections to producers/directors, and their agents (if they have one). Being hired due to having a camera package probably applies more to camera operators, depending on what kind of shooting you do. Now if you are just starting out, I could see the appeal of owning a camera because it allows you the freedom to shoot whenever you want, and to use it on projects that otherwise wouldn't have the budgets to use, say a Red camera. This helps build your reel and they get good image quality because of a good camera and your cinematography skills. However, there's also a good chance that they won't be paying you much which could make the ROI take a lot longer. That's why I throw out the words of caution. But I don't know anything about how the financial part affects you, so if it's not a factor then go for it. If it is, I would think about whether the upgrade from 5D to RED is warranted.

 

[Bob Gruen]

For some time now I've been debating which camera to buy as a I prepare to move to Los Angeles to pursue the owner/operator/DOP profession.

The Red One is a better animal for features while the Scarlet seems to be geared a little more toward TV. Which is your passion?

One thing I'd suggest is that you might want to re-think the whole LA thing. The LA Market is saturated with owner/operators, and I know a few guys out there who have never worked as much as they thought they would. If being an owner/operator/DOP is the course you want to take I'd suggest looking at Atlanta. Here in the South east Atlanta is really jumping, and it is such a new thing that the "old boys club" is not an issue like it is in say... Wilmington. Not sure about Orlando, it might be worth looking into as well.

 

[Rogelio Salinas]

Hi Sean. We were in the same position as you late last year. Once it was announced that a fully equiped Scarlet fell into the same price range as a fully equiped used Red One, we had to go with the Red One when there was an opportunity to buy one locally that would actually cost less than the Scarlet. Being able to shoot at a higher frame rate was the biggest selling point. Check out the Red Stuff for Sale section. That's where we found ours and there are quite a few Red One's for sale with many accessories for decent prices. Scarlet is great, but the Red One is even greater IMHO. Anyone that says that the Red One is going away anytime soon is wrong. Bad time to sell a Red One, great time to buy one.

 

[Isak Dinesen]

For me the weight is the best thing about the Scarlet. A fully equipped R1 requires a helper to move around and change height on the tripod in my experience. Of course this isn't a problem if you have a bunch of assistants.

With the Scarlet you can save the weightlifting for the gym and instead focus all your energy on shooting.

Plus the R1 wont have the Dragon option

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I had the same decision to make last Nov, the one massive advantage of Scarlet is the fact that it is upgradeable. R1 not. Also if you have a job that requires high frame rates rent an Epic.

48fps or double 24p is the slomo rate that comes up the most often, at least for us. R1 does that in 3K which with a good lens looks really great. Scarlet no. So with an r1 the need to rent just for slomo comes up very rarely, with Scarlet, you'd need to rent anytime you needed slomo of high quality.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I'm not a DP but I do work with a lot of them, so take this with a grain of salt. DPs seem to get hired based on a few things. Their reel, their style, their connections to producers/directors, and their agents (if they have one). Being hired due to having a camera package probably applies more to camera operators, depending on what kind of shooting you do. Now if you are just starting out, I could see the appeal of owning a camera because it allows you the freedom to shoot whenever you want, and to use it on projects that otherwise wouldn't have the budgets to use, say a Red camera. This helps build your reel and they get good image quality because of a good camera and your cinematography skills. However, there's also a good chance that they won't be paying you much which could make the ROI take a lot longer. That's why I throw out the words of caution. But I don't know anything about how the financial part affects you, so if it's not a factor then go for it. If it is, I would think about whether the upgrade from 5D to RED is warranted.

if you work a bit, buying is worth it. If you're producing your own jobs you can call the camera, and a camera is the one thing you need on every job. We've found that shooting Red has saved us money - once you know it it's actually far easier than a 5D because Red has many fewer problems and caveats that eat time on set and even make certain types of shots impossible on 5D. Plus the results always look better, in every way.

 

[Josh Snyder]

R1 image looks better, Scarlet is smaller. Which is more important to you?

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

R1 image looks better, Scarlet is smaller. Which is more important to you?

How does R1's image look better if Scarlet has essentially the same image as Epic?

 

[Jason Rudd]

Somebody, somewhere on this forum posted their *opinion* that the Red One MX looks "richer" than the Scarlet.

Suddenly, it becomes defacto truth that the R1 MX produces better images than the Scarlet.

Until we can see absolute testing with Dynamic Range, resolution and color comparisons between the two cameras, can we all reserve judgements like this? It serves nobody to jump to these conclusions without facts and visible, provable testing.

Just like with Scientific journals, published articles must be backed up by empirical testing and facts. Or RED can just come out and gives us the straight dope.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

if you work a bit, buying is worth it. If you're producing your own jobs you can call the camera, and a camera is the one thing you need on every job. We've found that shooting Red has saved us money - once you know it it's actually far easier than a 5D because Red has many fewer problems and caveats that eat time on set and even make certain types of shots impossible on 5D. Plus the results always look better, in every way.

Absolutely, from a production company standpoint it makes a lot of sense. And DPs who work a lot and can dictate the kit rental, also a very good investment. For someone starting out, with few connections it can be a risky investment but with ambition and a good attitude, anything is possible.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

For me the weight is the best thing about the Scarlet. A fully equipped R1 requires a helper to move around and change height on the tripod in my experience. Of course this isn't a problem if you have a bunch of assistants.

With the Scarlet you can save the weightlifting for the gym and instead focus all your energy on shooting.

Plus the R1 wont have the Dragon option

Anytime you can make a camera with better IQ and make it smaller at the same time that's a very good thing. Epic is amazing in this regard. Scarlet I have to defer to those who have shot with them a lot. I've only done one shoot with it.

But for those who typically shoot with cameras mounted on tripods, dollies, sliders, jibs, cranes, etc. R1 is not really that big. I agree that to carry one around and shoot for long periods of time handheld, that's not for those who are in less than stellar shape. The really good operators who do a lot of handheld are often in pretty good shape. But I'm sure they won't complain about a smaller camera as long as it balances well.

So, bottom line. Identify your needs, get the most value from whatever camera you buy, and hopefully make some money with it.

I think all three cameras in the RED lineup are pretty solid.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Somebody, somewhere on this forum posted their *opinion* that the Red One MX looks "richer" than the Scarlet.

Suddenly, it becomes defacto truth that the R1 MX produces better images than the Scarlet.

Until we can see absolute testing with Dynamic Range, resolution and color comparisons between the two cameras, can we all reserve judgements like this? It serves nobody to jump to these conclusions without facts and visible, provable testing.

Just like with Scientific journals, published articles must be backed up by empirical testing and facts. Or RED can just come out and gives us the straight dope.

4K 16:9 (Red Max in Hd aspect) is a wider field of view and more resolution than 4K HD (Scarlet Max). Given the same sensor, thsi wider field of view will mean less noise, and a better rendition of lenses. This is "better".

Add to that 4.5 K widescreen and you get much better. These are facts.

3K slomo will look way better than 2K slomo, which is all you can do on a Scarlet.

A scarlet is NOT the same as an Epic,. I am shooting at 5K on epic, which no way looks the same as 4K HD - forget the resolution (which is not nothing, even when scaling down to 1080p) the wider field of view means more depth of field, less cropping, etc. Also teh Epic has another grade of chip inside it.

Don;t get me wrong, Scarlet is dirt cheap for what it does, but a used Red One Mx is even better value at this time, and much cheaper when you count media.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

4K 16:9 (Red Max in Hd aspect) is a wider field of view and more resolution than 4K HD (Scarlet Max). Given the same sensor, thsi wider field of view will mean less noise, and a better rendition of lenses. This is "better".

Add to that 4.5 K widescreen and you get much better. These are facts.

3K slomo will look way better than 2K slomo, which is all you can do on a Scarlet.

A scarlet is NOT the same as an Epic,. I am shooting at 5K on epic, which no way looks the same as 4K HD - forget the resolution (which is not nothing, even when scaling down to 1080p) the wider field of view means more depth of field, less cropping, etc. Also teh Epic has another grade of chip inside it.

Don;t get me wrong, Scarlet is dirt cheap for what it does, but a used Red One Mx is even better value at this time, and much cheaper when you count media.

Just to nitpick so no one gets upset, the Scarlet has ASIC that didn't meet Epic standards but the sensor is the same, at least according to RED.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Just to nitpick so no one gets upset, the Scarlet has ASIC that didn't meet Epic standards but the sensor is the same, at least according to RED.

Yes, but a 5K view looks nothing like a 4KHD view. I have noticed other differences.

Again though Scarlet, Red One, Epic - you can't go wrong with any of them.