RED-One FOOTAGE vs. Nikon D7000 FOOTAGE : BACK-TO-BACK "Comparison" !!

[George D.]

I did a very interesting experiment today, and would like to pass this information along to anyone who might be interested.

After doing some test shots with the RED-One 4K and a Nikon D7000 DSLR, I put these takes through Adobe Premiere Pro CS5 in a Windows7 PC, and edited them back-to-back. Since the images from the Nikon were only about half the size of those from the RED-One, they had to be enlarged to fill the same equivalent frame.

I then transferred the short test-movie to Blu-Ray and watched it projected onto a 100" TV screen.

To my eye, under very limited usage, I see no reason why some occasional takes from the D7000 could not be used in a major production shot with the RED-One. Especially for HD television. There does not appear to be enough of an appreciable difference to matter to most production companies.

I would be interested to know if anyone else has done any similar comparisons tests, and what your results were. And, especially what your clients thought. Could THEY tell the difference?

Thanks.

.

 

[Jake Bastian]

:mad2:

 

[Solomon Nero]

If you know what you are doing, you can make anything from t2i-5d to d7000 splice into some RED footage and you might not be able to tell on a 1080 setting... But it is very very hard to match the color from a DSLR to a RED ONE, and im sure the Epic also. The color correction on DSLR footage becomes hard because the color space and low bit rate is so limited, that once you push colors, the H.246 compression REALLY comes out...in an awful way. And honestly...on a 1080 screen even, I can totally see the difference between the resolution of a DSLR compared to RED. DSLR footage's resolution just...does not fill 1080 pixels like RED, or any other high end cam for that matter. But your right, the average person may not be able to tell at a GLANCE.

 

[Johnny Friday]

Did some tests like this two years ago George....with 5d RED ONE....make no mistake you CAN see the difference...push in 1:1 and as Solomon mentioned....try to match the DSLR footage in Color or FCP and you really stretch the limits of what it can do as opposed to RED footage and manipulating as prores 4444 or in RAW via RCX or whatever codec you choose with R3d. Just cannot hold up in post. BUT...all that said, looks fine when just posted on the tv for a quick compare.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

If you know what you are doing, you can make anything from t2i-5d to d7000 splice into some RED footage and you might not be able to tell on a 1080 setting...

So far so good ...

But it is very very hard to match the color from a DSLR to a RED ONE, and im sure the Epic also.

[INSERT STRING OF HEINOUS EXPLETIVES]

Perhaps I should just say, "duh."

I'd argue that this is a backwards workflow in any case, and you should stop shooting and thinking this way regardless of whether you are shooting a DSLR or an Epic-M Dragon ... or whatever Red is offering in the year 2100.

This started with DSLR ... but its not really about DSLR. DSLR just exposes what I regard as bad thinking. Maybe I'm reading too much into this post, but there is an attitude in our profession that goes away from making films, and towards preserving choices. Bah!

If you have to use a DSLR, use it like a DSLR. Don't try and use it like a Red then complain that it isn't.

Extending that, don't try and mix DSLR with Red by trying to make the DSLR into a cheap Red. When that is your circumstance ... then use the Red like a hyper expensive DSLR.

If you need/want to shoot a DSLR to intercut with Red, then you must work on set within the DSLR's constraints.

Then you make the Red camera match the DSLR. Because while a DSLR can't match a Red, you can make a Red match a DSLR!

You know, because the Red is better and more flexible and such.

By the way, you have to follow this same logic if you are intercutting Red MX and Epic, or Red One M and Red One MX. You set up for the limits of the "weakest" camera working the shot, then post the "stronger" cameras to match.

So, you shoot everything so the DSLR footage looks as close to your final look as practical. If you don't know how to do this, then you are screwed, because a DSLR has very little flexibility to "save you" in post.

If you are shooting "flat" or in any other way "shooting for the grade" with a DSLR ... you're a fool. Oh sure, Technicolor et. al. are lining up to take your money. They heard P.T. Barnum, and their bank accounts are flush with the money of fools.

I always recommend shooting for final image on the day no matter how awesome your camera and/or colorist. Then, your colorist will only have to tweak the image, not create the whole look.

As a post guy I know this advice, if followed, means less money for me for doing "hero post" for some poor soul. As a director and a DP this advice is a good reason to hire me as opposed to someone who's looking to spend money making decisions later on.

The biggest "problem" with DSLR's is that they force you to choose now. You click the button and you are stuck with what you shot. Not enough resolution to stabilize, or reframe. Not enough color to do extreme grades ... etc etc. You have to decide what you want before you shoot, and execute it properly on the shoot - or else.

Now, I understand that this goes against the trend of the moment. Just because its a trend doesn't make it a good thing.

The true art of film making lies in the decisions made.

What Lucas has shown us - that you can tinker endlessly with movies finished decades ago - is almost universally thought of as a bad thing. So, why optimize your acquisition - the bulk of your film making efforts - for that use?

A studio may demand that, because they want to protect themselves against your potentially bad film making skills/vision. Studios love to be able to let you do all the work, then sweep in at the end and turn your film into their film at the umpteenth hour.

Lazy film makers and procrastinators like this because they can put off the real work of making a damn decision for even longer.

Shoot your movie the way you want it to be. Then live with your decisions.

Use a Red to make bolder choices, not safer ones!

 

[Michael Romano]

This thread is going to explode at the speed of light.

 

[Rob Gardner]

Well, then, If I were you I'd just put the Red in the dumpster and build your business around the D7000.

 

[Julian Jones]

@alexander ibrahim, it's kind of hard to take a person seriously when replying in such a way as you have above. You do have some points that you made but there are better ways of expressing them.

@George, you can but like you said under very limited usage. And you would be at the extremes as to what you could get by safely with using a DSLR.
But it is best to use one format or another for a production unless circumstances call for changes. I remember reading about a contest on Hurlbut Visuals, http://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2011/01/17/marines-where%E2%80%99s-the-5d-contest-ii-%E2%80%9Cfor-us-all%E2%80%9D/ "Marines: Where's the 5D",
in which you had to guys which of the 20+scenes did he either use a 5d, 7d, or 1d mk iv, and an arri, and a film. So you could mix em (this isn't in comparison to a Red), but would have to be with similar settings, like said before a Red could convert downwards, whereas a D7000 or any DSLR could not convert upwards.

Also, keep in mind, that a DSLR that shoots 720p or above, regardless of fps, is shooting at a resolution of 72 dpi per frame, whereas a Red camera is shoot about 300 dpi Raw .R3D, per frame. That's about 14mp (give or take) per frame as oppose to the DSLR's up to 3mp per frame.

Now, I've experimented with upsizing my d3s footage to 4096px, or more, to see how it would look, how I could handle it, and whether vimeo or youtube could take it.

There are alot that you can do with select DSLRs, regardless of manufacturers. But keep in mind you can do alot more with a Red, if you can afford it.

 

[George D.]

I appreciate everyone's input, but I think some of you are getting a little too carried away.

I did NOT say I was going to shoot a production inter-cutting the two types of footage. I did NOT say the D7000 was as good as the Red. Etc, etc, etc.

I "did" say it was an EXPERIMENT and what the results were "visually on a 100" TV screen".

I mean, come on guys. Give me a break here. The footage from the RED-One doesn't even BEGIN to be anywhere near as good as that from a DSLR, or any other camera out there at the moment, for that matter. And, since I am NOT a fool, I was not implying that it did.

What I was trying to imply, was that IF YOU HAD TO, you could "possibly" get away with using a "shot or two" from a good DSLR within a one hour television production shot on a RED-One, if you had no other choice. Example: If you're shooting a documentary and there is a cut-away, or a pick-up shot you need, and you just can't "fit" the RED-One rig into the confined space, or you do not want to risk your one-and-only hard earned Red in a risky or dangerous situation.

And, I'd be the last one on the planet to suggest using a DSLR on a "major" studio film production. I was thinking more along the line of documentaries, etc. I admit, I did say the word "major" in my original comment, but what I meant was a major television documentary, like for the Discovery Channel, or the like. I should have phrased it differently.

Anyway, let's all calm down and discuss things, not start some kind of assault. I always thought the RedForum was above that kind of childishness. I would expect it on other forums which are often visited by know-it-all nin-com-poops, but not the RedForum.

.

 

[Adam Eden]

Reduser has its f*&Kwits also George... Believe me....

But there have been so many posts about RED VS Canon, Nikon, the entire world, etc.

I don't mean to sound rude or offend anyone, but another thread on this topic is pointless.

 

[Uli Plank]

IMHO the two points to mark from Alexander's contribution are:

– Shoot any DSLR as close as possible to the look you want, there's very little room for grading if any. Period.

– Shooting a DSLR flat (as suggested by some amateurs) for later grading is BS. Only if you want to depict a foggy day from a day exterior…

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

IMHO the two points to mark from Alexander's contribution are:

– Shoot any DSLR as close as possible to the look you want, there's very little room for grading if any. Period.

– Shooting a DSLR flat (as suggested by some amateurs) for later grading is BS. Only if you want to depict a foggy day from a day exterior…

That's half.

My frustration is that people are trying to compare a DSLR to a RED on equal terms.

People have a hard time understanding that to even begin comparing you must first realize ... its not a competition to see which camera is "better."

That's as stupid as finding the four fastest kids from your neighborhood and taking them to the track today to race the 4x400m relay against Team USA and the 4x100 against Team Jamaica.

Get real.

The question isn't if the DSLR is as good as a Red. Any idiot knows a DSLR is a highly compromised system.

The question is if you can do good work with a DSLR?

The answer to that is YES.

I mean a film that was nominated by the academy for cinematography used a 5D for portions. (Black Swan)

That leaves the question of how to use them effectively.

What Uli quoted is half my answer.

The second half is to shoot the better cameras on that setup to match the crappy DSLR. i.e. match the Red to the DSLR.

If you are think about going the other way, matching a DSLR to Red footage, you will have failed before you started. When I read that someone experimented with upscaling DSLR footage to 4K ... it boggles my mind. You can't get really good results if you upscale Red 2K to 4K!!!

My one quibble with Uli's understanding of what I wrote is that its not just "amateurs" recommending flat settings and grading DSLRs. Technicolor has suggested this. (I haven't tried their Canon presets myself to be fair.) Also respected post guys like Stu Maschwitz.

That is the pure unadulterated BS I was talking about. BS spewed by people who damn well know better. BS that creates expectations those cameras can't come close to fulfilling. Ideas like grading it to match the Red. HA!

If you want to do extreme grading, then shoot Red or Film. If you are 100% satisfied with 2K or 1080p delivery being both your acquisition and final format, then you can shoot ArriRaw with Alexa or Sony S-Log on F9000, F35, F23 and F3.

If you aren't shooting film, RAW or S-Log or something very similar (Panalog on Genesis? Viper FilmStream?) then the word "extreme" should not be adjacent to the word "grade" in your post work flow.

Anything less is "just video" and then you have to start following the advice of shooting for final picture on set.

I guess another way to sum this up is that you fit your process to your tools, not your tools to your process.

That's the mistake Stu and Technicolor exhort in you when they tell you to shoot flat and grade. You can do that with a Red or Film and in some particular circumstances, it is the best way to work. That doesn't mean you should work that way with every camera just because its the best way to work with film scans!

 

[Matthias Hutter]

When I read the title I thought you did a test with D7000 RAW time lapse as comparison....

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

When I read the title I thought you did a test with D7000 RAW time lapse as comparison....

If a shot is just a 5-10 minute take that's one thing, and yeah it makes no sense to break out another camera.

If its an all night thing though, then, for security reasons and some practicality issues, I prefer the DSLR for this application, even if I had four Epic Ms on my shelf I'd take the 7D out for that.

I mean ... I'm willing to walk away from a 7D set up and leave it with a PA and a twelve pack.

If it was an Epic with Master Primes, I just couldn't walk away from the set up.

 

[John Caballero]

I've watched footage and videos from a Red camera that look like absolute crap and I've watched footage and videos from DSLRs that look stellar. Isn't that interesting.

 

[Thor Melsted]

The footage from the RED-One doesn't even BEGIN to be anywhere near as good as that from a DSLR

I think you meant to have that backwards...

 

[jimhare]

Hey George, I was at a test screening of a new feature film shot on Red last week. I know the director, who told me there were a few shots from a 5D in there. Didn't jump out at me when watching a DCP on a 20 foot screen so what you're saying is completely viable.

I would suggest if you keep them short, and aren't trying match as a second camera to Red (i.e. use as cutaways to establishers, crash cams, distance stuff) then I say go for it.

 

[George D.]

Hey George, I was at a test screening of a new feature film shot on Red last week. I know the director, who told me there were a few shots from a 5D in there. Didn't jump out at me when watching a DCP on a 20 foot screen so what you're saying is completely viable.

I would suggest if you keep them short, and aren't trying match as a second camera to Red (i.e. use as cutaways to establishers, crash cams, distance stuff) then I say go for it.

Thanks Jim.

At least someone on here is understanding what I'm saying without responding with a rant.

I was talking about a "very" few shots here and there with maybe durations of 10-60 seconds each. Nothing more.

Also, for time-lapse if you only have one Red Camera and you don't want to tie it up for a month or more, I see no logical reason why you could not use a DSLR like a Nikon D2X (for example) for those sequences. The BBC has been using them for years doing their "mind-blowing" time-lapse sequences.

And, one last thing; I may NEVER use a D7000 within the same production as a RED-One. It was ONLY a question and a comment.

Why "some people" get so upset at a question is beyond me. If you don't like the question, don't respond. It's as simple as that. There must be an awful lot of angry people out there.

.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I've watched footage and videos from a Red camera that look like absolute crap and I've watched footage and videos from DSLRs that look stellar. Isn't that interesting.

Maybe because the camera isn't what's making the image, it's the cinematographer.

Why "some people" get so upset at a question is beyond me.

What's upsetting is that ideas like these put a lot of bad ideas into producers and less technical experienced directors. We who later work with it then needs to convince them they are wrong about certain things. I for one don't like to get into a debate just because my clients read BS on the internet and think it's true.
Fact, a DSLR is high compressed, not true HD that CAN look good if you do it right. Is it practical in a production compared to a camera like Epic? Not a chance.
Is it technically better then Epic, no way. Can you make good looking images? Yes. Will it intercut with Red material? Maybe if you finish in SD, not higher then that.
Does both look good on a bad TV? Yes, does they both look good in a theatre with 4K projection? Not a chance.

So why upset? Because BS ideas spread to our clients and I like to think we have the experience to give our clients the right options, instead of debating with them on why their "I read on a forum" option is bad.

 

[Brice Ansel]

George.D
We shot a ball game a month ago, involving a Red and a 5D.
For obvious reasons we used the 5D for the close up, and the Red M to cover the large views.
It was the first time I worked with 5D footages.
When I did start cutting on the timeline H264 and R3D together,
the thing who shoked me the most, was the lack of resolution and details of the Dslr rushes.
I mean even a large composition with R3D did show more details than a close up on the dslr.
So I finally ended using the 5D material on really short cut, it worked, at least for a certain internet audience.

Dslr are good for their price, I'm just wondering if all the hard work involve to match R3D and DSLR is worth it at the end.
Thinking out loud, maybe it's better to rent an extra camera to do the job.
I guess I worked too long with R3D to feel satisfy with H264 in term of resolution and texture.
Just my 2 euros

Regards