RED-ONE audio section opinion from a location sound recordist

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Ah well Fergus! That is almost half my name!

You need to get Jim to give you a cool car like The Wolf's too.. something very fast...

Maybe we should start a "Give The Wolf a cool car" thread..?

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Brian, post 56 was reassuring.

Thanks.

I liked your Scarlet idea though, Number 6.. that was genius as ever :gun:

Are you still planning on burning down your house when you film your first RED feature?

 

[number6]

I liked your Scarlet idea though, Number 6.. that was genius as ever :gun:

Are you still planning on burning down your house when you film your first RED feature?

Hah! No! It's too late! the house burned on schedule but my RED did not arrive on schedule.

(The previous was a complete drama tie zation... but you get me point.):usd:

edit: I'm not really British... I just fancy little green geckos who speak with a British accent.

second edit: And I also like commercials that use Scottish accents as well, although I can't think of a particular one offhand.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Hah! No! It's too late! the house burned on schedule but my RED did not arrive on schedule.

(The previous was a complete drama tie zation... but you get me point.):usd:

edit: I'm not really British... I just fancy little green geckos who speak with a British accent.

second edit: And I also like commercials that use Scottish accents as well, although I can't think of a particular one offhand.

Oh No! You'll have to burn someone else's house down then. In the name of ART.

Commercials.. probably for Whiskey.. or the delights of deep fried Mars Bars

 

[planet e]

Audio is still young, be a little patient, please.

Brian Ferguson - BriFerg

Hi Brian: In the future, please address me as Ms. Planet E. However, Dr. Planet E, straight up, works fine as well... heh...

I'm very reassured that you and Stuart both heard my plaintive cry into the audio wilderness.

I've been following JFirestone's efforts at testing audio and posting his results over the past several weeks and was growing increasingly concerned at the team's seemingly lackluster response...it seemed like "use a dual-recording system, you cheap stupid bastard" was about as far as the conversation ever developed. That repeated sentiment is a real conversation-killer and does nothing to address how RED will be deployed in the types of field work and international travel for which I plan to use my 2nd camera...

As Mark Allan succinctly stated, the future of production is characterized by speed, and the pairing of a forward-thinking image-maker with the current audio structure seemed awkward and antithetical to speed, efficiency, and quality. My second camera was booked with the belief that all systems, audio, image and post, would be looking forward into exactly this future.

I feel confident that when RED isolates an issue, it gets addressed in a timely fashion, but this one seemed to be falling by the wayside.

But I'm glad that it seems that the audio issues are finally being heard and that y'all aspire to putting world-class audio to a world-class image.

It is great to know that you and Stuart and the rest are jumping on the case. Thank you for listening. I look forward to seeing what sorts of audio enhancements you have in store for us over the next few builds.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Good Luck in Bhutan Dr Planet E

That's a crazy interesting place..

I share your concern about using RED in such scenarios. It'll take a little ingenuity I think to rig the camera for single person use (especially in that sort of environment). The audio is one very important factor, but then we have the weight and size, and workflow (although that will surely improve faster than anything else). I'm sitting here trying to imagine what I can get away with not putting on the camera, and I'm hopeful that over the next month we'll see some innovative solutions posted here.

 

[number6]

Hi Brian: In the future, please address me as Ms. Planet E. However, Dr. Planet E, straight up, works fine as well... heh...

Oh good, a doctor.

Doc! I've got this phantom itch... you know, like when your foot itches but your leg has been cut off? Well anyway, I have this itch between my two palms when they are spread apart about this much. It's like there's this 10 lb. weight there, but when I open my eyes and look, there's nothing.

Someone who only plays a doctor on the internet said it was probably the RED itch. Still, I would like a second opinion.

How 'bout it Doc? Any ideas?:help:

 

[planet e]

you people are nuts...but you knew that already...

i'm a RED itch sufferer myself, number6, and the only known cure is a to drink the RED kool-aid...

also available in our easy to swallow RED pill form...

take the RED pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.

our blue pill, on the other hands, cures constipation and may go a-ways towards easing the RED itch, but it costs $250K...i highly recommend the kool-aid, sweet with no bad after-taste...

 

[number6]

you people are nuts...but you knew that already...

i'm a RED itch sufferer myself, number6, and the only known cure is a to drink the RED kool-aid...

also available in our easy to swallow RED pill form...

take the RED pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.

our blue pill, on the other hands, cures constipation and may go a-ways towards easing the RED itch, but it costs $250K...i highly recommend the kool-aid, sweet with no bad after-taste...

I had doubt about your bonafides as a doctor, but your prescription seems dead on. I was further convinced of your authenticity when you stated a blue pill costs 250k. (I can get them over the internet for about $2 a pill.)

You doctors and your fancy cars and fancy cameras. What a racket. OBTW, i don't have insurance :bleh:

 

[planet e]

to move this back on-topic, I want to thank Jeff again for his contribution to this discussion and add that I hope you continue to post your findings as new Builds are released.

I visited 2 sets of RED cameras (3 cams total) in the past two weeks, and one of the sets of owners did not care at all about what RED offered with audio, because they only intended to use the audio as part of a dual recording system and the other one, a smaller shop, was just as concerned as I was. It occurred to me that the first batch of initial testers likely resembled the larger outfit, and it is only recently that these smaller operators are beginning to get cameras in their hands, and their/my/our needs are only beginning to get a real voice, just as the audio is in initial release. So the audio conversation is quite a bit behind. We need to pump up the volume on this, so to speak....

Taking delivery on my first RED camera is a no-brainer, because it is for my business, and it has already paid for its keep in both tangible and intangible ways. And I'm grateful to RED for launching me on this adventure. It will almost always be used with a dual recording system. But the second RED I ordered to use more on my pet projects, with an eye towards using it as a 2nd camera for the studio when necessary.

So I have a foot in two camps, we'll be double recording for studio work and for the feature we're shooting this summer. But I also need this to be a one-man band type of camera. I need to be able to take it back to Bhutan, to a few UNESCO World Heritage sites, etc. etc. If it's not that camera, I will be bummed out.

I believe that it will be. I believe RED listens more closely than any other camera company on earth. They have the will to make this the best camera on the planet, period. With audio quality that matches image quality. Bring it, I'm ready for my world tour!

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I probably should have been a louder voice at the very beginning in regards to audio. I did put in my wishlist, but I'm sure a lot of factors went into Red's decisions about audio.

It breaks down like this. If the hiss issues are worked out and the mic pres are good enough to get through some down and dirty one man band style shoots, then Red is halfway there on this issue. Ideally, the mic pres would have been provided by Sound Devices or similar build quality but let's face it the cost goes up at that point. How much, I don't know. I agree that the quality should at the very least be as good as any high end HD camera on the market today. Anything less doesn't make sense because as much as this is a digital cinema camera it's also able to be used in many other configurations. I haven't done my own tests, so I'm going based on the feedback so far. I'm hoping that Red at least meets the expectations I've outlined above. Not being able to use the onboard mic pres, although not a dealbreaker for me would be disappointing. I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised. The SD Mix Pre is a great option, and very manageable for a one man band situation.

Dual system sound. For those who want to see it go by the wayside, keep in mind that having a sound person who is as focused on sound as the cameraman is on visuals is extremely important. So many good independent films killed by bad location sound. Often inexperienced filmmakers think they can do it all, and the really good ones can sometimes because they understand the process enough, but others shoot themselves in the foot and want to stick the mic on the camera and call it a day. Doesn't work that way. Having the sound person mixing and recording gives them complete control over the sound of the film. The can send a good reference track to the camera which can be used in editing and then conformed with the hi-res audio later. When budget is a concern or you need to just get it on tape, then sure you do what you can with the on-board audio and that is why Red needs to make it solid, both mic and line input signals. But for those who want to see double system completely eliminated, I wonder about the approach. You are relying on others to not change audio settings, accidently change your levels, etc. There are times when double system sound makes so much sense.

So, as for external pots(which I wanted very badly) Red has mentioned the Supergrip as a solution. We'll see how that is implemented. Could work. Connectors should have been full-size xlrs but we'll deal with what we got. That was a decision that probably has some reasoning but not sure it has ever been officially mentioned. Signals will need to be tested for waveform accuracy, frequency charting, etc, etc. In the months to come we will know more about the Red's audio capabilities. If we have learned anything from these couple of years of development, Red s listening and they want to improve on their designs when they can.

I have not heard fan noise yet. Will be very soon and I will determine how much of an issue this is for me. I will post my thoughts when I have heard them in action. Looking forward to seeing these new builds that are going to be released soon. We may very well see improvements across the board.

Steve

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Good Post Steve. I think you put it quite succinctly

For me: IF the micpre's prove to be unusable that would be a deal breaker; and many other people I believe. But I don't that will happen.
The Supergrip! Ahh yeah, I remember when we all arguing about the RED audio back last June, Jarred posted to say that the Supergrip would be the solution to having no audio pots. But we have no price, no mock-up, no weight, no size, no idea how it could be connected to the camera.. which could be a good thing, as RED have the opportunity to really think about how EFP single operators would use such an item and make it to suit them too. Specifically: if The Supergrip weighs 2kg, and has to be mounted on the rods instead of the camera, then that will not be very useful for a single EFP person IMO.

I agree that RED is listening, and are also working hard to make the camera as good as possible. And it's great to hear from Stuart and Brian "The Wolf" Ferguson in the audio section. But I think it speaks volumes about the priority given to Audio that Jim has never (to my knowledge) posted about it. Not that the man has too for RED to be working on it, but as Planet E pointed out, other threads and concerns do seem to get much more attention.

It would be supremely ironic if RED Build 15 gets bad reviews, or people choose not to buy it because the audio is not up to scratch!

 

[Steve Sherrick]

The more components we have to add to the camera and support gear, the bulkier the camera becomes (not that it's unusual in the high end world to have bulky rigs) but for the folks who want lean, mean camera rigs the more audio interfaces, breakout boxes, etc you need to add to the camera the less mobile you become. Just something to keep in mind as we keep talking about additional things to improve/fix issues.

Steve

 

[Tail Ends]

Jeff did us all a service by reminding us that all image and no sound does not a good film make. From a producer's POV, this is a critical issue and one Red needs to address immediately--and it seems they are taking these thoughtful comments seriously.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

As someone who's tried to get good audio and great picture at the same time, I've always found that dividing my attention between the two is a bad idea. The camera operator should focus (no pun intended) on the image and sound should gets the same level of attention from a dedicated professional.

Is there some digital audio equivalent of shoot RAW? Is there a RAW audio format that can extract great levels from the sound without peaking? Perhaps some format that records the full range of highs and lows into some 24 bit Datastream then spits out a 12 bit, beautifully modeled perfect track? I realize I'm dreaming here, but somebody's got to have something like this, right?

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

I don't think so jeff..

 

[planet e]

As someone who's tried to get good audio and great picture at the same time, I've always found that dividing my attention between the two is a bad idea. The camera operator should focus (no pun intended) on the image and sound should gets the same level of attention from a dedicated professional.

Let's clarify something--no one disputes that it is preferable to run sound and image separately. This is not a point of disagreement. So stop trying to make it one.

The "debate" over whether to run single or dual system recording is not a debate, it is a distraction from the point of this thread: How does the current on-board audio system measure up to the standards of the other RED systems? And also against other existing camera systems which set the minimal expectations for this one?

And is RED willing to listen and make adjustments based on their existing base of users' needs? (We've established that they are...)

Pontificating about whether someone should shoot single or double system does nothing to advance the conversation about whether RED's existing audio system is up to the standards of its other systems. In fact, those pontifications have been shutting down this discussion, implying (or stating out right...) that it somehow lacks professionalism to desire a decent single system. Let's open this up, not shut it down.

Why apply that sort of limited, backwards thinking to a forward-thinking tool? RED is in the business of breaking paradigms, not replicating the status quo--why should the standards for their audio system be any different?

What we are advocating for here is maximum flexibility for all users, period.

I want my second RED camera to be able to be used in any situation and environment.

I will use both single and double recording set-ups. I want the maximum flexibility of having both options, not a sloppy work-around for getting decent onboard sound that adds weight and cabling to my camera, in a situation where those things are *least* desirable.

Even adding a MixPre doesn't just add the MixPre itself, it adds the unit, the cabling, the cable adapters, and extra rods and handles and mounts for mounting the darn thing. One extra pound of gear quickly becomes five extra pounds of gear. You will feel every inch of those five pounds if you are taking this rig to altitude, as I plan to.

Plus, it adds additional set-up time when it may not be practical.

I shouldn't even have to re-state the obvious, but here's a few specific situations that I've encountered:

- shooting in monasteries

- shooting at 13,000 feet or higher

- shooting wildlife

- quick interview set-ups, where the opportunity is unanticipated and the subject is suddenly available

- shooting climbers

There are many situations where a light, fast set-up is optimal.

Some people shoot fast and light for budgetary reasons. They should be entitled to make that call for themselves. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with that choice. You say you don't do a good job of running sound and image simultaneously. Of course it's challenging, but that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done. Double system audio is an advantage, not a religion.

 

[ericyoung]

Let's clarify something--no one disputes that it is preferable to run sound and image separately. This is not a point of disagreement. So stop trying to make it one...

There are many situations where a light, fast set-up is optimal.

Some people shoot fast and light for budgetary reasons. They should be entitled to make that call for themselves. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with that choice...

Of course it's challenging, but that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done. Double system audio is an advantage, not a religion.

Absolutely agree - wish audio pots had been included. :sad:

 

[Finner]

Absolutely agree - wish audio pots had been included. :sad:

I really see it as a "To late now!" situation. A small handful of others and I were fighting hard for pots, full size XLR's and better audio solutions many months ago and very very few backed us up. Hell im a cine guy that will rarely not have a sound guy with me when shooting sound and I felt it was important. Now we have mini XLR's no pots and a multitude of other sound problems with the camera. Surprise Surprise, the writing was on the wall a long time ago that the audio of this camera would be sub-par when they anounced and showed the specs of the camera. Now the camera is built and shipping so there are no longer changes to be made to the cameras audio hardwear but instead work arounds to be found to try and make the camera fit for peoples uses.

I conceeded to myself about 2 months ago that the camera would unfortunately need an outside source of equipment to properly record sound. The war is over on this one and we see what we get now and I see it as a cine camera. So hire a sound guy with a mixer if you need to record good sound.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Interesting thread but Daren is spot on (as usual).

Hans

PS: Sorry not backing you in this regard but I never considered RED as an ENG compliant camera. The soundmen I know hate beeing tethered and wireless to the camera is not an option when safe recording is important (not to open this discussion again...).