RED-ONE audio section opinion from a location sound recordist

[Joel Kaye]

Fact is the hardware is done and dusted.

If it's a firmware thing that would be awesome and we'll probably see a fix soon.

But if it's hardware then it's never too late for a recall. They should fix the audio NOW before they have 2500 cameras to recall. The preamps are a part... they need to get great ones in there.

In the end, sound is probably 65% of a movie. Visuals can be all over the map but sound HAS to be great. This issue is never going to go away. I think everyone IS happy with 24bit uncompressed, but bad preamps pretty much makes that irrelevant.

 

[10s]

I figured out how to solve all these audio problems. I'll gaff tape my DVX100 to the RED camera and record the audio into the DVX then transfer the audio over in the NLE.

Do you think this will work? :waaa:

I dream of a simple functioning camera that is easy to use, delivers superior image & sound in a robust form that will hold up under physically demanding conditions at a reasonable price.

 

[jbeale]

I don't mean to excuse Red if their design is flawed, but is it typical to shoot for cinema release while having no soundman, no mixer, no external preamp and rely only on in-camera mic preamps? Does that usually work well?

One person mentioned the Panasonic DVX100 as a sound reference. I owned a DVX100 for a while. For what it's worth, here is a test I did on its built-in sound: http://beale.best.vwh.net/measure/audio/DVX100.htm

I brought that camera to an accredited Panasonic service place, paid $100 to have them check it out, and they pronounced it A-OK and meets manufacturing specs. It has since been sold so I cannot do further tests.

 

[10s]

... is it typical to shoot for cinema release while having no soundman, no mixer, no external preamp and rely only on in-camera mic preamps? Does that usually work well?

Last time I checked 99% of cinema is shot on film, and those cameras don't record sound, therefor they need all the extras. These legacy systems work well but it's not the only viable method. Shooting 4k video is a new beginning, I believe the audio section should also strive to break new ground.

RED has the opportunity to design a system that goes beyond the norm.

I'm hoping they'll get there eventually.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Thanks for the comment fergus, but I do have my reasons for asking for the PM. I will explain why as soon as I can. I would encourage anyone with audio comments to PM me if they would.

Kevin

Hey no worries Kevin,

I was joking really.. :clown2:

Which I shouldn't be doing in such a serious thread!

I wonder about this usb solution. I think the thing is that decent preamps are kind of large and heavyish and need a bit of power, so it's never going to be light enough to be the kind of kit you'd want to attach to the camera. Especially as this onboard sound solution is really of interest to EFP people, who want everything to be small and light, like an iphone :usd: (I include myself in that category).
We could sling a mixer round our necks and feed line level to the camera. But my experience is that we'll get hopelessly tangled in the cables.

Stuart wrote on Saturday that he was testing the Silent fan mode at 75 degree ambient for one hour: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=145173&postcount=15

And he also suggested, and some other users agreed, that the hiss was perhaps still a firmware issue.

The RED user manual states that the 24bit no audio pots idea is a revolutionary approach to recording audio: just set the level real low and fix it in post. I get the impression that they are imagining this is like changing the ISO metadata on the picture side. Of course we can still adjust the exposure manually though eh...
I think it could be made to work, but it is still a bit half arsed. Which is a phrase that I believe may sum up RED's approach to the audio. And I mean as a company here, I'm not talking about individuals. They are all working flat out at RED HQ!
But if this had been a picture quality thread of this importance, Jim would have posted already..

Still I'm excited! And I'm ready to believe that it's all going to be ok in the end.. (just like in the movies).

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

I DESPERATELY want a digital input for the audio!

I DESPERATELY want a digital input for the audio!

I have begged and begged for a digital input for the audio. I don't care what type (Firewire, USB, etc.). A digital-straight-to-flash input would bypass the RED's preamps, it's line-level amp, it's converters, etc. And it would allow me to take a digital signal straight from an SD744T and then not worry about having to synch up the audio with the video.

That, my friends, is what I have wanted from the beginning. I sure hope someone can make this happen.

RED????? Can you PLEASE give us a four-track audio digital input????

PRETTY PLEASE?

Stephen

 

[xdissolve]

To me, the idea of setting the level low and bringing it up in post is ridiculous. 24 bit or no 24 bit, there’s still a signal to noise ratio, and recording low and normalizing in post will bring the noise floor up. Having that extra bit depth helps, but it certainly isn’t an excuse to just set your levels once and never worry about it again. For me, the entire lack of so many physical manual controls is a bit disturbing (for both picture and sound).

Stephen, I whole heartedly agree. Being able to run two BNC’s from the 744 back to two AES/EBU inputs on the camera would have been genius. Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, unless something comes along that goes through USB, I don’t really see it happening with the current hardware.

 

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

These are really good questions, but I wonder if you'll really get them answered unless you rent a current Red and try it out yourself. I think I'm going to do this later this week re: my location sound work, since so many of my clients have ordered the camera. I'd be very interested to hear your opinions of the camera's sound section esp. as it relates to one-person doco work (which is what a lot of my audio post work is on).

Philip Perkins CAS

Unfortunately, my neck of the woods (northwest Florida) is not the kind of place where you could rent a RED. But I do know that a company in Pensacola has theirs now. One of the guys posts on this board, and I made a casual phone call when I realized that someone else near me would be getting one. (If you're reading this, Craig, hello!:biggrin I don't really know Craig but might give him a call to see if he'd be interested in doing some audio comparison tests that we could then post.

In the mean time, if you do get to test the camera soon, I'm sure we all would love to hear some samples and get your feedback and opinions. I'm hoping that if enough folks like yourself with really good credentials can make enough noise, the problems that exist with the audio can be addressed before mass production really gets underway and fixing them becomes a whole new financial and practical kettle of fish.

 

[jbeale]

If Red does enable a USB audio input, maybe this would help. It appears to be the size of an in-line XLR attenuator, provides +48P, gives you a USB output.
http://www.mxlmics.com/condenser_mic/micMate/micMate.htm

I've never seen one, and given it only costs $80, I wouldn't expect too much.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Stephen and xdissolve: I agree with you both. I'm mean who the hell is ever going to use four mic level inputs (meaning four separate mics on location) without having a sound person there to supply the extra mics/rig them on the talent/deal with the many issues that mics throw up.. (especially radios)? And if you've got a sound person then you've most likely got a mixer and, these days, a field recorder (744T etc) so again you don't need 4 mic level inputs on RED..
What would be useful is: two full size mic/line level inputs with top class pre-amps and limiters, and little audio pots. And then two digital in's which would give us 4 digital line level inputs (that would be bit of a revolution.. or at least fairly cutting edge..). But as Bruce and Finner (and many others) will tell you, this is an argument that some people on REDuser have been making for a LONG time..

Like I said: "half arsed".

And it's a real shame because the camera part seems to be awesome!

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

How I would love to avoid to have to synch in post. . . how beautiful it would be if we could just take digital audio straight in to the RED from our digital recorders. . .

. . . but it's all just fiction at the moment.

:-(

Maybe someone at RED is listening. . . MAN, it would have been so easy to give us a digital input. Sooooo easy.

BTW, are there any boxes that can convert Firewire output to USB in realtime??? That way I could take a Firewire cable out of the 744T and then to the converter box and then straight into the RED's USB port. . . IF they will only audio-enable the USB port.

Stephen

 

[xdissolve]

Hmm, good idea Stephen, but I’m pretty sure the 744T doesn’t output it’s audio over firewire in realtime unless you use the optional DVD-RAM drive… not that Sound Devices couldn’t change that with a firmware update, but for instance, right now you can’t connect your 744T to your laptop and record in real time, only transfer files from the internal hard disk.

 

[Stuart English]

Audio and USB

Audio and USB

How I would love to avoid to have to synch in post. . . how beautiful it would be if we could just take digital audio straight in to the RED from our digital recorders. . . Maybe someone at RED is listening. . . MAN, it would have been so easy to give us a digital input. Sooooo easy.

If you want to send multi-channel digital audio to RED then the first step is to find the right USB device. Meanwhile if you are willing to use an external mixer at all, the line input option is already available to you, and I know from personal experience works well. And I have been told clients are commenting that the sound quality on RED is better than other on-camera recordings that they have used before. So as always test, test and test again.. we will keep on doing that to wring maximum performance out of every aspect of this system.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

I don't know a single Sound Technician that would depend entirely on the on-board inputs for anything other than a match-back reference. I'm sure the RED is capable of carry all the eggs in one basket, but I see this camera as part of a double-system sound workflow. Does anybody really intend to use the onboard audio exclusively?

 

[xdissolve]

I don't know a single Sound Technician that would depend entirely on the on-board inputs for anything other than a match-back reference. I'm sure the RED is capable of carry all the eggs in one basket, but I see this camera as part of a double-system sound workflow. Does anybody really intend to use the onboard audio exclusively?

As a location sound technician, yes, I have been in situations where I have had to run directly into the camera. The times are rare, but it can happen, especially in documentary and ENG situations. This becomes even truer when you have to mount a shotgun mic onto the camera and run with that setup. All we’re asking is for the internal sound to at least be as good as other cameras that are already on the market… not too much to ask IMHO.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

I don't know a single Sound Technician that would depend entirely on the on-board inputs for anything other than a match-back reference. I'm sure the RED is capable of carry all the eggs in one basket, but I see this camera as part of a double-system sound workflow. Does anybody really intend to use the onboard audio exclusively?

It depends on the scenario. If I am filming an observational long form documentary, (say about a violinist, to keep the audio challenging), then yes I am going to want to have a sound recordist there and/or be recording to a separate device. However just say we are using a 744T here. We'll I'm going to be using my stereo mic to record the music which means that all the mic level audio inputs are used up on the 744. So even in this scenario I'd want to have two mics going into the camera at mic level: a lav on the performer, and then either another lav on another subject in the scene or a shotgun mounted on the camera so I can go and get whatever sync sound I might want from the multiple subjects on camera. Also these camera mics will help me to easily sync the sound from the 744T in post.

It's just one example and of course there are other ways of solving this problem; but the point is that this sort of real EFP solution works great right now with any number of video cameras.

Now in many EFP situations I won't have a sound recordist. It's just me and the Director. Or if it's one of my crazy movies, it might just be me following a subject for ages.. So I would need easy, high quality mic level camera sound. Punto as they say in Italy

 

[10s]

I don't know a single Sound Technician that would depend entirely on the on-board inputs for anything other than a match-back reference. I'm sure the RED is capable of carry all the eggs in one basket, but I see this camera as part of a double-system sound workflow. Does anybody really intend to use the onboard audio exclusively?

Jeff, you're probably correct but I think RED has the opportunity to go beyond the normal systems of today and create something new, something better, and why not? With the advent of digital wireless technologies there's room for quantum improvements. A system that can carry all the eggs in one basket might be a very nice tool to have available. That to me seems in alignment with the RED Revolution.

As for on-board specs ... the old DAT recorder is much worse on all sorts of specs than some current cameras. The new Sound Devices gear, etc. is another story, but just a few years back DAT was considered acceptable.

It's curious that there is a crowd keenly interested in seeing the RED camera as a dual system dependent tool, why? I can't see any advantage with a dual system limitation.

 

[Mark Allen]

Does anybody really intend to use the onboard audio exclusively?

This could be my personal bias as someone who has worked a tremendous amount in post production - but I absolutely feel that some day film students will look back at the days when sound was recorded to a separate device much as today's students look at a moviola - much the same as imagining a barber as a surgeon. Hard to imagine the logic.

I think as we move into the future of productioin - the speed demands will only increase.

I will never forget back in my post days being on tech support with ProTools many years ago for a movie mix we were doing when we encountered and undocumented limitation of the program and the programmer on the other line of the phone said - "You're using ProTools to mix a movie?"

 

[Kenn Michael]

I will never forget back in my post days being on tech support with ProTools many years ago for a movie mix we were doing when we encountered and undocumented limitation of the program and the programmer on the other line of the phone said - "You're using ProTools to mix a movie?"

That's a great quote!

I remember having a hard time convincing producer colleagues of mine to produce entire records in ProTools!

Times are a changin!

 

[planet e]

I think as we move into the future of productioin - the speed demands will only increase.

Mark Allen has completely, absolutely, positively nailed this, and I don't know why RED isn't being as attendant to revolutionizing the future of sound production as they have been with image.

Travel docs are taking us to places where we've never been, and we can't always squeeze in there with a crew. I have a big hard drive full of never-before-seen images of Bhutan, and I have a long-term plan to go back and finish the documentary project with a RED. I will be lucky to get *myself* with a camera into some of these places, let alone a sound recordist....

There are many situations where on-camera sound will be essential. I don't see these as "few" at all...I also plan to use this as the ultimate wildlife recording device...imagine the impact if Jim had been able to record good sound on the "lunch with your buddies footage"

There are MANY, not few, applications where on-camera sound could be used.