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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED-ONE audio section opinion from a location sound recordist

I certainly DO plan to record the audio for my feature with a dual system. But I'd like to be doing so as a BACK-UP ONLY. . . not as the primary recording method. The time costs of having to synch up all of the audio files with the video files on a 1000 shot feature are just mind-blowing. Sure, I want the audio files there on a disk IF something untoward happened inside the camera, but I sure don't want to have to use 'em. I want my audio files, all nice and neat, inside my RED, beautifully synched with my pretty video pictures.

SURELY, that isn't too much to ask, is it?

Stephen
 
Audio capability

Audio capability

I certainly DO plan to record the audio for my feature with a dual system. But I'd like to be doing so as a BACK-UP ONLY. . . not as the primary recording method. The time costs of having to synch up all of the audio files with the video files on a 1000 shot feature are just mind-blowing. Sure, I want the audio files there on a disk IF something untoward happened inside the camera, but I sure don't want to have to use 'em. I want my audio files, all nice and neat, inside my RED, beautifully synched with my pretty video pictures.
Click to expand...

Lets keep this real guys, there are lots of assumptions being made here.

a) If you are prepared to do backup audio recording, then you have an external mixer / recorder and you could therefore feed the RED-ONE with Line Level inputs.

b) No-one from RED has said that the camera has only been designed for dual system sound, but we do agree that it is a very flexible and high quality approach.

c) Mic and +48V are where we heard hiss. We are working through that. With Build 13, using self powered microphones seems to be O.K - at least for most people.

The audio system IS a 24 bit system not 16, and it could in theory accept pre-digitized signals via USB, so there are differences of approach in the system design. We do want your operational feedback, we are here to serve our customers requirements.
 
Stuart English said:
b) No-one from RED has said that the camera has only been designed for dual system sound
Click to expand...

that's true, but the absence of pots makes this substantially more difficult...I'm sure with practice, I'll get speedier at making audio adjustments in the menu, but it is definitely inefficient. And currently, you can't read the meters while you're in the gain menu, which is exponentially inefficient. That definitely needs to be re-worked!

I imagine that I can plug in my MixPre and voila instant external controls, but then I'm busted back down to 2-channel control, more weight, more mounting, more cables, more batteries/energy supply to worry about. Et cetera. It's sloppy, if you're working alone, and a less-than-ideal work-around.

I simply didn't expect this feature set to be so clunky, and I had to get my hands on the camera before the issues on the type of work that I do, mostly, became obvious. I have 2 cameras ordered, and the second one was specifically ordered with an eye towards being able to travel alone with it. Its efficacy for that application, with the current audio situation, as I understand it, is giving me pause.

I have kept very calm about most issues, trusting RED to work every possible issue out over time, but poor audio controls is something that can make my shoots in tight places and fast conditions a misery.

I feel confident that RED will figure out how to improve these issues. The image is in Build 12, and look how far and how fast it has come... and the sound is still at Build 1-2...so there is clearly a lot of room for improvement. At least I hope there is....

The one thing that has me *most* puzzled and concerned is how long it has taken for RED to respond to postings about audio issues. It seems that when image issues are addressed, they are met with nearly-instant response. And when Jay A. Kelley fusses about a workflow that was never promised in the first place, it's all hands on deck...

I simply wish the audio issues were getting equal time...JFirestone has been posting about this for several weeks into a seeming void.

Thanks to Jeff Deel for chiming in on the matter, finally seems to be getting a little traction.
 
A Sound Solution

A Sound Solution

When I'm shooting as a one man band, I'm considering this device to solve level control issues, and line input requirements. I plan to mount this on one of the Red Side handles for direct control. It certainly beats dragging along a larger mixer, and can easily be switched out from a camera mount or lav mic when needed. There is also a limiter and low cut filter, which is a big plus when you're doing everything yourself. While not a perfect fix, it doesn't seem too cumbersome, for those of us who shoot as a one-man-band. Any thoughts?

Click Here

http://http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292990-REG/Sound_Devices_MP1_MP_1_Single_Channel.html

Dave Dessel, #: 522

www.daviddessel.com
 
Stuart. . . you're completely missing my point here. Even using the RED's line in, you are STILL running through a less-than-superb line-level gain stage (surely there is some sort of a level adjustment on the line-in, right? I can't imagine that to not run through "the best" components available :-) AND a less-than-superb AD converter (probably the ones that sell for $2.99 in Singapore). I'd much rather be able to use much better dedicated audio components for those crucial procedures.

My point is that, if we can go direct digital in, we can use great audio compenents AND have our signals fully synched and not have to mess around with all that huge mess in post. Two birds get killed with one stone! I want the RED to allow us to be "An Army of One". . . or, at least. . . as much of "one" as we can possibly be.

Stephen
 
planet e said:
that's true, but the absence of pots makes this substantially more difficult...I'm sure with practice, I'll get speedier at making audio adjustments in the menu, but it is definitely inefficient. And currently, you can't read the meters while you're in the gain menu, which is exponentially inefficient. That definitely needs to be re-worked!

I imagine that I can plug in my MixPre and voila instant external controls, but then I'm busted back down to 2-channel control, more weight, more mounting, more cables, more batteries/energy supply to worry about. Et cetera. It's sloppy, if you're working alone, and a less-than-ideal work-around.

I simply didn't expect this feature set to be so clunky, and I had to get my hands on the camera before the issues on the type of work that I do, mostly, became obvious. I have 2 cameras ordered, and the second one was specifically ordered with an eye towards being able to travel alone with it. Its efficacy for that application, with the current audio situation, as I understand it, is giving me pause.

. . .

I feel confident that RED will figure out how to improve these issues. The image is in Build 12, and look how far and how fast it has come... and the sound is still at Build 1-2...so there is clearly a lot of room for improvement. At least I hope there is....

The one thing that has me *most* puzzled and concerned is how long it has taken for RED to respond to postings about audio issues. It seems that when image issues are addressed, they are met with nearly-instant response. And when Jay A. Kelley fusses about a workflow that was never promised in the first place, it's all hands on deck...

I simply wish the audio issues were getting equal time...JFirestone has been posting about this for several weeks into a seeming void.
Click to expand...

Great post. I concur 100%.
 
Stephen Pruitt said:
I want the RED to allow us to be "An Army of One". . . or, at least. . . as much of "one" as we can possibly be.
Click to expand...

Ditto. If you have to bring 4 guys with you every time you want to shoot and get audio then you may as well RENT RED. The reason to OWN a camera is because you want to use it ANY friggin' time you want to and you're going to shoot it a lot.
 
Audio capability

Audio capability

planet e said:
that's true, but the absence of pots makes this substantially more difficult...I'm sure with practice, I'll get speedier at making audio adjustments in the menu, but it is definitely inefficient. And currently, you can't read the meters while you're in the gain menu, which is exponentially inefficient.
Click to expand...

Don't worry, we are not done with this yet...
 
I think I've finally seen the light! I was wrong wanting a camera that is simple, complete and easy to control, but now "I get it."

C'mon people, really, who wants a camera that allows us to be an army of one? Wouldn't it be much better to have a camera that requires a large number of people and gear, after all, isn't this about looking good?

Let's say, you've been shooting a feature and you happen to look outside and the sky looks just right for a few shots. Wouldn't you rather lug around loads of audio gear and go through numerous availability scheduling conversations, pay issues, rental issues with a number of people? Or would you rather simply jump in the car and go get the shots?

Of course if you're a pro you'd want to do it the hard way because it looks like a big production, and what your doing isn't really about making a film, it's about looking big and professional. Afterall, who really wants, "a camera that can record great audio with easily accessible contols."

This is a cinema camera. This camera should require at least 6 to 8 extra people before it can even be turned on. Professional film makers demand huge crews, tons of money with investors telling us what to do and complicated systems that constantly breakdown.

Just kidding!
 
Good post, 10s. . . as for me. . . I'm just a po' boy. Err. . . at least I'm becoming that way since I foolishly started down this merry lane.

THAT'S IT! This whole RED adventure is like a drug addiction! It started out innocently enough. . . a true, cinema-quality video camera at the hitherto unheard-of price of $17,500! But then there came the lens. The batteries. The storage. The handles. Etc. Before long, my $17,500 dream had started to bloat so badly I confused it with the Medicaid budget! And THAT'S ONLY IF I WANT TO MAKE SILENT FILMS!!!! :-)

Throw in a great outboard mixer, a couple of great mics, an outboard recorder, etc., and my cinema budget is starting to look like Madonna's sparkling water bill!

Seriously, I love what this camera is going to allow me to do, but I REALLY don't want to have to deal with substandard audio connections on a $17,500 camera. A digital input would just rock my world about now. Then, and only then, will I be able to truly make audio clips every bit the equal of my pretty eye-candy visuals.

Stephen
 
Hold on, you're saying this Red Camera can be used on so-called 'talking pictures' as well?!?

Never mind about that, the "talkies" are a passing fad. Who wants to go to the picture shows and hear some yammering idiot drown out the piano player?
 
Maybeeeee.... maybeeee.... maybe that Scarlet thing is like a piggy back add-on to the RED one and it will link with RED one to act as a viewfinder while collecting perfect sound!

Just musing aloud. Probably not.:calm:
 
And it will only cost. . . ANOTHER $17,500!

:-)
 
I suggest the MixPre instead of the MP-1

I suggest the MixPre instead of the MP-1

Hi Dave,

Instead of the MP-1 we will be using a Sound Devices MixPre, most likely mounted on the top rails behind the top handle. I don't really like the idea of having something sticking out on a side handle, but maybe that will work for you.

We considered the MP-1 first, but it is basically the same size (though slightly lighter) as the MixPre. With the MixPre we get two channels and the nice LED meters. Mounted flat on top (on the top rails), when my partner is shooting and I'm running sound I should be able to see the meters from the side and tweak the gain if necessary... A solo shooter should also be able to see levels in the Red LCD/EVF and reach up to ride levels after they've gotten a sense of where the knobs are. When we want four channels, we'll use the MixPre onboard, then a Sound Devices 302 mixer to feed the other two channels.

We haven't done much testing of audio on our Red camera yet, but I must say I have only expected line level to give us the quality we need - I never expected mic preamps inside the Red could give us the same quality as external preamps.

Now if someone comes up with a compact device that provides great mic preamps, a great DA converter, etc. and feeds digital audio to the Red through USB, that will be even better.



Dave Dessel said:
When I'm shooting as a one man band, I'm considering this device to solve level control issues, and line input requirements. I plan to mount this on one of the Red Side handles for direct control. It certainly beats dragging along a larger mixer, and can easily be switched out from a camera mount or lav mic when needed. There is also a limiter and low cut filter, which is a big plus when you're doing everything yourself. While not a perfect fix, it doesn't seem too cumbersome, for those of us who shoot as a one-man-band. Any thoughts?

Click Here

http://http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292990-REG/Sound_Devices_MP1_MP_1_Single_Channel.html

Dave Dessel, #: 522

www.daviddessel.com
Click to expand...
 
planet e said:
I have kept very calm about most issues, trusting RED to work every possible issue out over time, but poor audio controls is something that can make my shoots in tight places and fast conditions a misery.

I feel confident that RED will figure out how to improve these issues. The image is in Build 12, and look how far and how fast it has come... and the sound is still at Build 1-2...so there is clearly a lot of room for improvement. At least I hope there is....

The one thing that has me *most* puzzled and concerned is how long it has taken for RED to respond to postings about audio issues. It seems that when image issues are addressed, they are met with nearly-instant response. And when Jay A. Kelley fusses about a workflow that was never promised in the first place, it's all hands on deck...

I simply wish the audio issues were getting equal time...JFirestone has been posting about this for several weeks into a seeming void.

Thanks to Jeff Deel for chiming in on the matter, finally seems to be getting a little traction.
Click to expand...

Mr. Planet E,

Thanks for acknowledging that we are on the second build of audio. In fact we at Red are getting exposed to the audio being enabled almost at the same time as the users. I too feel confident that we will be able to address issues and make users as proud of the audio as they are of the image.

I have been associated with Red since before NAB 2006 and one thing I have noticed is that there are a lot of really smart people here. We are aware of issues regarding audio and are steadfastly working to make things better. Sometimes we don't reply fast enough because we have to read the boards after hours on our own time to see what topics are brewing.

I am a DoP/Director/Editor who shot interviews and other topics for years for Oakley. I have a pretty wide assortment of Sound Devices equipment and various pro mics, and use this equipment everyday at Red to test our gear and give feedback to the development team. These message boards are moving at a pace that makes it hard to always chime in in a timely manner. All I can say is I am really optimistic about our team and that we (I) want the audio to be as good an experience as the visuals. But as you mentioned it was only enabled on build 12.

That being said I recently shot a corporate promotion piece for a friend that was totally dialog driven. They had a short production schedule and I was really impressed with the quality of the audio I was hearing in the edit bay. There were a few issues on the set, there always are. But rest assured there are people here who are also in your shoes and sharing real world production experiences with the Red development team. All of your input is very useful.

I have probably heard more Red cameras through headphones than anyone alive and Build 13 really helped, and I know it is only going to get better from here. I just know that we always strive to make the camera better and with our dedication to customer service - the best way to make the user happy is by pleasing the ears and the eyes. Audio is still young, be a little patient, please.

Brian Ferguson - BriFerg
 
briferg said:
I have probably heard more Red cameras through headphones than anyone alive and Build 13 really helped, and I know it is only going to get better from here. I just know that we always strive to make the camera better and with our dedication to customer service - the best way to make the user happy is by pleasing the ears and the eyes. Audio is still young, be a little patient, please.

Brian Ferguson - BriFerg
Click to expand...

Brian: That's what we were crying out to hear!

In Tarantino's words (Pulp Fiction):

"Jules: I don't wanna hear about no motherfxxxin' ifs. All I wanna hear from your ass is, "You ain't got no problem, Jules. I'm on the motherfxxxer. Go back in there, chill them niggers out and wait for the cavalry, which should be coming directly."
Marsellus: You ain't got no problem, Jules. I'm on the motherfxxxer. Go back in there, chill them niggers out and wait for the Wolf, who should be coming directly.
Jules: You sending the Wolf??
Marsellus: Oh, you feel better, motherfxxxer?
Jules: Sxxt yeah Negro! that's all you had to say"
 
Brian, post 56 was reassuring.

Thanks.
 
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