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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED OLED EVF settings poll

RED OLED EVF settings poll

  • Don't know, don't care

    Votes: 1 3.7%

  • prefer no options for EVF settings

    Votes: 1 3.7%

  • would like to see image settings like contrast added

    Votes: 25 92.6%
  • Total voters
    27
Hi James,

thanks for the Poll!
I recently bought the DSMC2 EVF and was super confused.

On Daylight scenes, it works pretty fine, but as soon as you go into lowlight shooting the black levels just feel weird.
All the tools mentioned above does work in a nice environment I use them all the time, but shooting a scene in low light - Blue Hour - on the backseat of a car with no space - a helium on your shoulder and the EVF pressed onto your Eye, you dont want to spend time to meter the scene or look on an external monitor or checking the goalposts ect.

I just want a reliable OLED EVF working fine in the RED ecosystem with the "what you see is what you get" experience. Just like I experienced with other brands.
We are nearly there...It would take just a Firmware update to get from a shitty EVF to a nice OLED EVF with good contrast and great blacks worth 4000$.

I just leave this here:
"Featuring the latest OLED technology, this EVF provides an unmatched personal viewing experience with a high contrast 1080p OLED micro-display and improved color accuracy with 30-bit RGB color representation. View and monitor your RED footage as it is intended with truer colors and deeper blacks in a larger field of view."

cheers
 
Philipp Roth said:
Hi James,

thanks for the Poll!
I recently bought the DSMC2 EVF and was super confused.

On Daylight scenes, it works pretty fine, but as soon as you go into lowlight shooting the black levels just feel weird.
All the tools mentioned above does work in a nice environment I use them all the time, but shooting a scene in low light - Blue Hour - on the backseat of a car with no space - a helium on your shoulder and the EVF pressed onto your Eye, you dont want to spend time to meter the scene or look on an external monitor or checking the goalposts ect.

I just want a reliable OLED EVF working fine in the RED ecosystem with the "what you see is what you get" experience. Just like I experienced with other brands.
We are nearly there...It would take just a Firmware update to get from a shitty EVF to a nice OLED EVF with good contrast and great blacks worth 4000$.

I just leave this here:
"Featuring the latest OLED technology, this EVF provides an unmatched personal viewing experience with a high contrast 1080p OLED micro-display and improved color accuracy with 30-bit RGB color representation. View and monitor your RED footage as it is intended with truer colors and deeper blacks in a larger field of view."

cheers
Click to expand...
That product description on red.com is... oof. 30bit representation? Yet posterization in the deep shadows. Less noticeable in a well lit frame, but in lower light ones it stands out.

I rent, so, any updates on the EVF image quality would bring added value, as customers would begin to like the EVF. As it is now, most renters try it, and just aren't into it. Cam ops don't mind, but for DP's it is important. They get a little disoriented, because the image looks different or weird, and the value of working with an EVF gets a little lost. Instead of it being a very focused sort of viewing environment, it is just distracting. So, I'd love to see the colors and contrast in a more OLED look. Would be great for renters that are used to trusting the monitor, if they can customize the EVF output. Not everyone is an owner op. Especially with the Ranger body, would be great if RED could help out the renters market by making the EVF image more adjustable.
 
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Today I received a loaner EVF which (with my existing Ultra-bright monitor) I tested in 2 conditions: 1) normal daylight; 2) low light = 2 hours after sunset in a dark neighborhood. My emphasis was on focusing. In daylight, the EVF worked fine for focusing but was not superior to using the Ultra-bright monitor. Use of Edge and Magnify made focusing easy in both cases but the Ultra-bright Monitor gives an image that is larger and easier for me to see.
In the night shoot there is little contrast except for the stars against the night sky. Edge with Magnify offers a little help but it is not as effective as "reasonable" light conditions. When I put on my reading glasses, the Ultra-bright was just as effective for focusing as the EVF. I thought the EDGE with Magnify display was a little easier to see on the Ultra-bright Monitor.
My bottom line: I'll return the loaner EVF and continue my landscape and wildlife work with the Ultra-bright monitor.
 
Mark A. Jaeger said:
Today I received a loaner EVF which (with my existing Ultra-bright monitor) I tested in 2 conditions: 1) normal daylight; 2) low light = 2 hours after sunset in a dark neighborhood. My emphasis was on focusing. In daylight, the EVF worked fine for focusing but was not superior to using the Ultra-bright monitor. Use of Edge and Magnify made focusing easy in both cases but the Ultra-bright Monitor gives an image that is larger and easier for me to see.
In the night shoot there is little contrast except for the stars against the night sky. Edge with Magnify offers a little help but it is not as effective as "reasonable" light conditions. When I put on my reading glasses, the Ultra-bright was just as effective for focusing as the EVF. I thought the EDGE with Magnify display was a little easier to see on the Ultra-bright Monitor.
My bottom line: I'll return the loaner EVF and continue my landscape and wildlife work with the Ultra-bright monitor.
Click to expand...

The idea that an OLED has no advantage over a High Bright lcd monitor for night shooting, is not what anyone might expect.


In color grading, I've found that OLED, Plasma, and some special high contrast LCD's do show the details in the shadows better. And with all other OLED Evf's I've used, there is a bit more distinguishable detail in the very darkest shadows near black. This also helps with the shadows to mids looking more natural overall. Unfortunately, the current firmware totally negates any advantages an OLED might have, by lifting the black point and shadows.

Thank you for sharing!
 
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Thanks for everyone involved.

Seeing red cameras around LA, I know there are few redusers that own or use an EVF, so every opinion is important since EVF users are definitely going to be overlooked when it comes to updates or fixes.

The idea of a fix has been shot down by RED staff. Reason stated was the Komodo is taking all engineering resources. They also warn that a fix for the EVF would take months of testing before a release. No mention whether they would be willing to release a beta firmware in the same way they released beta Komodo's and many other beta versions.
 
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*this thread took a few dips and turns, going to go through and edit my posts and clean up some of the information. Make it more simple and not jumping around so much.
 
what happen to this poll? did Red team ever gave some feadback?
 
they shut down the feature request page a few weeks later.
 
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I have far better results when it comes to image quality using Gratical HD on DSMC2 then any Red EVF so far. I finally settled down for older OLED bomb as it costs 600$ and its equally bad as new 4000$ EVF. Only good thing about that EVF in my opinion is the optics, they are top notch and relay pleasant to the eye. to bad that EVF is not better as it had a potential
 
Luka Sanader said:
I have far better results when it comes to image quality using Gratical HD on DSMC2 then any Red EVF so far. I finally settled down for older OLED bomb as it costs 600$ and its equally bad as new 4000$ EVF. Only good thing about that EVF in my opinion is the optics, they are top notch and relay pleasant to the eye. to bad that EVF is not better as it had a potential
Click to expand...

that is smart!
 
Update:

When talking to tech support about the greyed out low contrast image, they claimed that the older BOMB OLED EVF was considered too dark, so with the newer DSMC2 OLED, they lifted the shadows so operators cold see in the dark.

However, in this thread linked below, Luka attached the old BOMB led evf to a DSMC2 and did not get crunchy blacks as tech support mentioned, but he got milked out blacks and low contrast, just like the newer DSMC2 oled:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...st-olf-OLED-EVF-in-IPP2&p=1925031#post1925031


What this implies, is that the issue is not with the OLED EVF, so much as the video feed coming from the camera. Like Red messed up the video coming from the camera.

The disappointing thing, is that for Ranger owners, not getting a fix for this, means that we got a faulty camera brand new and red refuses to address the issue, or even say the real reason why.

Question is, why can the Panavision DXL2 provide a good image to its EVF? EDIT - looks like the DXL2 EVF is getting fed video from the rear SDI port, and power from a lemo cable. Though, the DXL2 has 4 SDI out on the rear, and DSMC2 has 4 video out options, so they are likely just redirecting the top and left LCD ports to the rear. So, I guess the question still stands, why can the DXL2 EVF look great, but not the $4500 Red EVF?
 
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It reminds me of one of the camera firmware updates a while back that resulted in raised black levels through the top LCD monitor, that got quickly fixed with the next firmware update.

I wonder if it's a similar thing.

And if it is, what priority it would have on RED's 'to-do' list, if it's there at all.
 
Les Hillis said:
It reminds me of one of the camera firmware updates a while back that resulted in raised black levels through the top LCD monitor, that got quickly fixed with the next firmware update.

I wonder if it's a similar thing.

And if it is, what priority it would have on RED's 'to-do' list, if it's there at all.
Click to expand...
hopefully itnis a firmware thing. seems like even the Komodo is experiencing a similar, but more subtle issue upon conversion. all of this could be related to an issue with rec709 type conversions. see this thread as well:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?185559-Desaturated-shadows&

obviously not the same exact issue, but all related in regards to viewing and conversion.
 
Does anyone know what EVF mod this is?

https://www.instagram.com/p/CNaQ1g7hWcA/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

51120288780_d4f0647a1a.jpg
 
must be a one off custom thing.


has anyone tried the new firmware yet? has that had any change on the EVF issue?
 
I was on red.com and saw a page of "known issues", and realized this is likely related to the same issue we are experiencing with the EVF. They are calling it "ERROR 0x7":

51172240435_871850bd90.jpg


It reads:
"Known Issue ID: 16392

Issue Summary: When an LCD is attached to the Primary EVF/LCD Port (on top of the camera) on a RED RANGER camera, the camera may show the following error message: "Error 0x7".

Target Firmware Fix: Investigating

Workaround: When the camera is off, remove the LCD. Then turn on the camera, and reattach the LCD. When available, contact RED Support to send your camera in for service."


This is the posterization issue that hasn't been resolved yet. It shows up in other ways, beyond just the EVF, so it is a camera body issue. Something with the video feed. But sadly, this also shows p in post in the footage sometimes too. So it could be partially IPP2's default rec709 conversion.


link to known issues page:
https://support.red.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500003527502?input_string=future+of+red
 
SUMMARY



So, to recap about the posterization and lifted shadows issue, that I wrongly assumed was the EVF, it is the camera video feed. I only noticed it in the EVF, because OLED is so much more critical and rich.


1. EVF is likely fine, exhibiting beautiful rich contrast at startup splash page, but once the system has fully booted up, the EVF shadows go gray and slightly posterized, Redding the contrast of the OLED display to that of a cheap LCD. Unfortunately RED tries to pass this off as a "feature". However, the issue is most readily apparent with the EVF because of the lack of ability to tune it out with contrast, saturation, hue, and brightness among other features. Being that the issue is so subtle in other monitors, and most apparent in the OLD EVF, it would at first appear to be the EVF issue, rather than a systemic issue.


2. In post, IPP2's default Rec709 conversation can exhibit a slight lift in the shadows, and slight, but sublet posterization in the under exposed areas of the image, rather than a smooth gradient. This is partly the way the default curve is designed, and the issue shows up more at iso's below 800


3. The users of the High Bright Touch monitor also notice the shadows issue, likely because the screen is so bright, use are seeing how bad the shadows are being displayed. Normal LCD's might not emphasize the issue quite as much.


4. When using SmallHD Cine 7, I was turned off to how poor the image quality seemed. the shadows looks posterized. I thought maybe SmallHD was using FRC tech, but after all of the experiences and talks here on reduser, I now believe it was the DSMC2 firmware sending a bad video signal to the monitors this whole time. With external monitors, contrast and such settings can be tune to mask the issue, or make it disappear entirely. Depends on how critical the viewer needs to be, in most situations should be fine, but certainly a little bit of a let down for such modern high end cinema camera.



Would I still want more EVF controls? Yes, but I think the bigger issue is the monitoring chain on the Red camera platform.
 
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