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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red offers too many cameras - change my mind

Karim D. Ghantous

Karim D. Ghantous

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Here is what Red sells right now:

V-Raptor

DSMC2 Monstro 8K
DSMC2 Monstro 8K Ranger
DSMC2 Monstro 8K Monochrome

DSMC2 Helium 8K
DSMC2 Helium 8K Ranger
DSMC2 Helium 8K Monochrome

DSMC2 Gemini 5K
DSMC2 Gemini 5K Ranger

DSMC2 Dragon 6K

Komodo 6K

Too many? I note that Red does not explicitly brand each of these cameras, either. E.g. Gemini is for commercial directors, Komodo is the crash cam with a global shutter, V-Raptor is for ultimate image quality combined with 120fps 8K.

I think that Red can cull some of those cameras and be left with a more focused product range. Which ones? Get rid of Monstro and Dragon to start with. Perhaps also get rid of Helium Ranger and maybe Gemini Ranger. Perhaps replace Gemini Ranger with Gemini Monochrome to offer a more modestly priced monochrome option. Maybe make the monochrome option a-la-carte for Helium V-Raptor and Gemini, reducing the product line even further.

So instead of 11 cameras, you now have four to six plus limited a-la-carte options.

BTW this is all just thinking aloud. I like thought experiments.
 
I think most of this will happen as DSMC 3 expands its range and older models that are still "in stock" are sold off. Whether it's a good idea to also categorize them for target audience and specific use scenarios, I'm not sure. For some it will be helpful as initial quick orientation but could be too narrow and restricting for creative tools that they are. Everyone can study the specs and read the reviews before making a buying decision, after all it's not something you buy spontaneously without much thought (well, for most).
 
I'm not sure id this even needs a discussion, given that RED is clearly phasing out DMSC2 soon, and focusing just on DSMC3, which will only be 3 cams (that we know of):

Komodo
V Raptor
V Raptor XL

That's not too many cams.
 
Alex Zeder said:
Whether it's a good idea to also categorize them for target audience and specific use scenarios, I'm not sure.
Click to expand...
Ah, but I am sure! A DP knows what he wants and doesn't need anything except specs and a test drive. So that is true. However, think of this from a business POV. Imagine if a DP is asked by another DP, "What's that camera made for?" The first DP should have a two word response. "It's for commercial DPs." "It's a crash camera." Branding matters, even for high end professional gear.



Nick Morrison said:
Komodo
V Raptor
V Raptor XL

That's not too many cams.
Click to expand...

There's room for one or two more, I'd say.
 
Karim D. Ghantous said:
Ah, but I am sure! A DP knows what he wants and doesn't need anything except specs and a test drive. So that is true. However, think of this from a business POV. Imagine if a DP is asked by another DP, "What's that camera made for?" The first DP should have a two word response. "It's for commercial DPs." "It's a crash camera." Branding matters, even for high end professional gear.





There's room for one or two more, I'd say.
Click to expand...

but look at the life path of Alexa Mini, it was made to be b-cam, small rigging option, underwater housing cam or even a crash cam... and it had took the world by storm.
 
This topic has come up before and will be somewhat hilarious in about a month with a few other camera announcements.

But in reality RED offers two body form factors for DSMC2 cameras. Regular and Ranger. DSMC3, Regular and XL. That divide is all about having either a camera that's very specifically production minded or having the flexibility of a camera you can build up or down to remain compact or not.

When DSMC2 was "Unified" that was a decent simplification. And Monochrome cameras are such a specialty thing, I would leave it out of the conversation. To RED's credit, they still continue to manufacture them however for those who want that sexy monochromatic "pure" sensor data.

From a filmmaking perspective it's really like this:

DSMC2

- Monstro = 8K max res w/ formats of VistaVision, S35, S16
- Helium = 8K max res w/ formats of S35, S16
- Gemini = 5K max res w/ formst of S35 and a special aspect ratio ideal for anamorphic and dual ISO for low light
- Dragon = 6K max res w/ formats of S35 and S16

Dragon likely wouldn't have been included in that lineup, but the response to that particular sensor has been wildly popular. And I still believe it was pretty much the most important sensor RED released before the newer ones. It also features the same pixel pitch/size that Monstro and V-Raptor. An interesting topic, but it works well both when it comes to a film mentality related to both formats as well as resolution.

DSMC3
- V-Raptor = 8K max res w/ formats of VistaVision, S35, and S16 with the added benefit of being 2X the frame rates of Monstro before it.
- Komodo = 6K max res w/ a special global shutter sensor and extremely small, power efficient, and relatively affordable cost considering all thing.

DSMC3 is "new" still. We have no idea what's coming other than XL. I personally want RED to continue making solutions for various filmmakers. More choices is not a bad thing really. Especially when it comes to IQ, performance, format size, frame rates, and potentially sensor specific features. But honestly, the top tier VV models are pretty much good at everything except for doing things like 8K S35, which is why Helium probably exists.
 
Luka Sanader said:
but look at the life path of Alexa Mini, it was made to be b-cam, small rigging option, underwater housing cam or even a crash cam... and it had took the world by storm.
Click to expand...

DPs use cameras 'off label' all the time. It doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not there is strong branding. What the DP does after that is up to them. Lots of people use the Komodo as an A camera, I have no doubt.
 
Phil Holland said:
This topic has come up before and will be somewhat hilarious in about a month with a few other camera announcements.


Spill the beans phil! What do you know?!?!
Are we going to see a komodo helium combo? How awesome would that be 8k 60fps in komodo body!
Click to expand...
 
I would say they need to have more lower cost options, Komodo is nice but 8K is the new bar and when Helium's are going used for about $8-9K, maybe since it is older now RED could make a market for the Helium for that $8-9K price range as a step up from Komodo. Even though shows like "Resident Alien" look great, I think the Gemini and Dragon may have to go off the lineup or be upgraded in some fashion but a new sensor or camera model could do both if done right. But even though there's the low end I'd like to see, I would actually be more interested in seeing innovation on the super high end much like Arri having the Alexa 65, something either larger format or super high resolution or spec. But who knows? Like Phil hints, stuff could be coming out this summer cycle so we'll have to wait and see.
 
More or less I'm mentioning that Arri is about to drop their 11th I think camera, making the point that nothing is too complicated for imaging professionals.

For those of us familiar with the film world of filmmaking, it wasn't just a journey of many types of cameras, but also several types of film stocks. Personally none of this is too complicated to me. I do think either through familiarity of moderate conditioning seasonal and built on models have become the easiest thing to digest. Everybody can understand the concept of something like a C500 MK II. Second model of that specific thing. But even looking at Canon or Sony as examples, if you look at their entire product range they are also in a similar volume of different models that stretch different pricing tiers.

RED right now I think is in a very, very interesting and likely critical moment. They found a way to get the cameras less expensive, i.e. V-Raptor and Komodo. I'm a long time filmmaker and pretty connected across the world, Komodo alone far and away the most popular RED camera to date. This can be equated to price and features. We have known for a long, long time that mass market is always the lowest to lower pricing tiers. Nothing is shocking here. V-Raptor is less than half a Monstro. There are performance gains in some ways, but there's also a level of newness and "differences" that create dissonance in areas that DSMC2 penetrated deeply into. V-Raptor XL will tend to some of that, but there are over reaching things that most still be done and added to firmware. I will say as always, it's early days for DSMC3 (I know Komodo is considered that, but it's sort of not the same beast as V-Raptor), but there's a few things that the gas needs to be stepped on IMO. V-Raptor right now is extremely good, but there's much that would take it well beyond that. In terms of value proposition versus performance to the higher end digital cinema cameras somehow both RED DSMC2 Monstro and V-Raptor are still a hell of a deal.
 
One of the best things about RED is that it's still a close-knit privately run company, which means they get to decide for themselves what role they play in the high-end digital imaging landscape.

At the same time, that landscape is currently being influenced by outside factors and challenges that all manufacturers are facing, so it's not like the 'old days' when there was more certainty and reliability in supply and demand that could be counted on.

The DSMC3 we've seen so far (Komodo and V-Raptor) is still in a lot of ways a result of where RED were going a couple of years ago, but even that has had to change a bit to accommodate the current circumstances.

The two most obvious indicators for me that it's not just business as usual, is the ditching of the upgrade paths for current owners, and the lack of a middle-ground camera between the entry-level Komodo and the flagship V-Raptor (and XL).

The lack of upgrade paths is mostly economic, but it also ties in with the absence of that middle-ground camera that a lot of people would have upgraded to.

It makes sense that the Komodo and V-Raptor are the only current DSMC3 options, historically they're the most bang-for-the-buck RED camera's ever, and they're not having any problem selling them. But the absence of the more fully-featured dedicated Super-35-sized-sensor DSMC3 camera is noticeable. Like wise is the current absence of the 8K Super-35-sized DSMC3 camera.

In the past, there were basically three levels of RED DSMC cameras per sensor generation, all released fairly closely together. DSMC3 is a bit of a departure for RED in that regard. Which is less noticeable because of the ongoing availability and viability of the DSMC2 platform, and which has been reasonably explained by RED themselves as a result of economics (no upgrade paths), the global situation (it's harder to make anything in the current climate) and their decision to compete less openly than they have in the past (no more announcing of cameras months before availability).

Comparing DSMC2 and the current DSMC3, a 6K Super-35 cut of a tweaked V-Raptor sensor, in the V-Raptor body, for a sub 24K price, would replace the current DSMC2 Gemini, and a newly designed 8K S-35-sized sensor would replace the current DSMC2 Helium (assuming the old Helium sensors aren't compatible with the newer DSMC3 bodies and that RED would take the opportunity to improve their new 8K S-35 sensor anyway). A lower performing version of both of those sensors could also theoretically be placed in a current (or tweaked) Komodo body.

But that would just be to get DSMC3 to the point DSMC2 is already at (in terms of sensor variety/capability), and would mean phasing out the current DSMC2 sensors (so as to not be supporting two platforms at the same time).

Maybe that's what's already happening, just more slowly than before due to production limitations, who knows.

Maybe having those extra DSMC3 options sooner rather than later would bring more end-users to that platform, allowing more resources to be spent ironing out the teething pains we're currently seeing. Who knows.

Maybe RED have different ideas on where they want to go with their camera line-up and how they want to get there. Probably.

Not too many RED cameras imo, in fact it could be said there aren't enough. Either way, there's no way things aren't being worked on even as we speak.
 
James Darren said:
The dynamic range of Arri's new camera will be far beyond anything that RED can offer. It's quite mind blowing...
Click to expand...

This is their 4K S35 camera, right? If so, I'm going to laugh as everyone suddenly forgets about the 'compression' of larger formats. And nobody is going to hire the current iteration of the Alexa 65, either.

I wonder what Red has planned, too...
 
James Darren said:
I wouldn't say nobody, as the Alexa 65 is a very capable camera and there is nothing else like it. If you want the 65 format in a high end digital cinema camera, what other options are there?
Click to expand...

It's digital. Sensor size requirements are elastic. V-Raptor and Monstro out-perform it in pretty much every metric. Even the LF has practical advantages that would make you question why you'd shoot the 65 for any reason.
 
What? Wait? The idea is to create cameras for all types of film makers and that's been done. These are creator's and inventor's that opened the door to affordable CINE camera's. We couldn't afford the Red One or epic camera's at first. So Red did trade ins and lowered prices so we could. You should know all of this, you have an option to buy what you like. Can you afford an Arri ?? Can you afford the firmware to turn on features? Red dropped it all in the camera with free updates and also added our request. What company does that? and you want to complain?? People talk about what Arri has but can't afford it...Bottom line who cares about what you shot on unless you tell them. Use the tools to create and stop complaining about what they should do or have done etc. If Red didn't give us a chance to afford their camera's we would still be dreaming and using consumer camera's and you know it.
 
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