Red Mythbusters: Well done!

[Jon Howe]

Dude, you guys are so pimp. That was great.

I'm about to do a commercial for our university on RED in the next few months. I hope that it will bring glory to the RED namesake.

 

[Kenn Michael]

I know that changing the in-camera settings for Brightness, Saturation, Exposure, etc. have no real effect on the 4K file that camera creates but does it have any effect on these other Quicktime files that it creates at the same time? Probably not but worth asking...

My reasoning being to limit the amount of time doing color correction in post and or having to work with RedCine or Color.

Yes, the in-camera settings affect the QuickTime files.

 

[Catpants]

Myth... what myth exactly?

Myth... what myth exactly?

Not sure what myth they are attempting to bust. It just shows people how to export proxy files into FCP which has never been an issue and is not a new concept. Sony XDCAMs do the same thing. A proxy is just a highly compressed reference file, so it is no different than any other offline edit in Avid or FCP.

For example people use DV res files to cut digital betacam projects if they don't have enough space to sort the footage as uncompressed.

So the Red people are being a bit disingenuous here. This video is spin doctoring. The old politician's trick of answering a different easy question instead of the real hard one being asked.

The post issues with Red have not thing to do with importing or editing proxies. The issues are how to deal with the 4k raw files. This is the real myth they have to deal with. They don't want to tell you that dealing with 4k images is presently beyond FCP or any other software product available on the mac.

Dealing with 4k images is still the realm of high end finishing systems from companies like Quantel and Davinci. The interesting thing is, the post house featured in the video, Plastercity, while being the top FCP based facility in the USA, actually has a Quantel Pablo 4k DI system running in the so called "high end" FCP grading suite featured in the video. So they are being pretty deceitful saying its just an oversized FCP suite.
I just wish Red would be honest about this and not produce videos that promote magic solutions to problems which don't exist.

 

[dino g]

behind the scenes stills

behind the scenes stills

thought you may enjoy some behind the scenes shots...

it was a quick, fun, shoot.

 

[Uli Plank]

May I contradict a little bit?
First of all: what is clear to members of this list, is not clear at all to many clients or others involved in a production.
Second: A 2K (or 1920 x1080) workflow is fine for many, not all RED owners will always work for the big screen in 4K. Plus, there are still many movies done in 2K for the DI and shown to large audiences. RED is delivering stunning images when downsampled, simply cleaner and richer than anything initially shot in 2K.
BTW, there is a software on the Mac that can handle 4K just fine, called Shake. Just in case you have something effects-heavy coming in…
Finally: Why not offline in 2K (or less) on the Mac, conform and hand it over to Scratch for final grading? Films have been made like that for well over a decade now.

Regards,

Uli

 

[dino g]

Real world myths exist.

Real world myths exist.

Catpants:

For your information, not everyone that wants to use a red camera spends countless hours on this site. producers, directors, clients, agencies; they do not spend a lot of time here if any.

so, when the DP suggests using the camera, the producer usually asks his friends or co-workers if they know anything about the RED. more often than not, some very old information is then passed along as truth, which in fact it is a myth.

I have worked this camera as hard if not harder than anyone on the planet. i have many repeat DP's, directors, agencies, clients. but i still get 5 calls a week from someone that wants to use the camera and in some cases books me, but has no idea how "it works in post".

Myth busters is for them...clearly not for you! as you seem to know everything.

in defense of ted and michael, not that they need it, but since i was a part of this and i am a bit like a pitbull when it comes to protecting my people, i will say that if you listen closely they say that the suite is a big fcp bay, which it functions as for many hours in a given day, yes pablo lives there too, but what they were showcasing at that time was fcp, not pablo, so at that very moment it was a mac 8 core running final cut and the second screen was a huge 30' projected image...hence a big (screen size) fcp bay...

not sure what you have against plastercity, but i will say if you like the red camera and you like the workflow, you should be thanking the boys at plaster because they have put, put and will continue to put countless hours of R&D in for RED & Apple & Assimilate to make sure that those tools work for YOU, the red owner. no other post house on the planet works as hard as they do to make sure you can have a good experience. so back off and bow down. if not, go get a f23 and some tape.

 

[Tim Fassnacht]

i love the mindless banter on this forum.

but hey- good video there guys. Kosmos, you're right. the people that count don't have time for these forums and a short video like this is a great way to clear the tremendous amount of confusion that has mounted over the past several months of "beta versions" of this camera's firmware.

I DO, though, think that "Episode 2" should touch lightly on finishing solutions for multiple delivery options. Which I'm sure there will be plenty more of after next week.

Not everyone needs a DI, and not everyone needs a digibeta master but a lot of people need to be shown that there are MANY viable solutions for finishing whether its to the web or right on up to a film out for theatrical.

In the mean time, why not just a link to Plaster City's Red Workflow page?

See you guys at NAB.

Cheers

 

[BigLu]

DINO TED MIKE
and to the rest of you who made that.

That was very cool,
thank you.

Im inspired to make a music video with 2 cameras 1 take now.

=)

 

[Catpants]

Nomad:
Sure Shake can handle 4K, but is not really designed to do conforms or DIs. Last time I checked Scratch was a PC product, but I could be wrong? Has anyone tried running it under bootcamp?
Kosmo3D:
I have nothing against Plastercity. They are a great post house with an excellent reputation. But saying in the video that their DI suite is just a large FCP suite with a digital projector in it is stretching the truth a bit. The Pablo is the center piece of the suite, not something sitting in the corner gathering dust. Its in there for a reason, 4K DIs.
My concern is the video while busting one myth it is creating another. The myth if you choose to do a project in 4K , the entire project can be easily done from start to finish for on the mac. They continually refer to 4K in the video. With 2K deliverables it is possible and I never disputed that.
Look forward to episode 2

 

[Sudhir Chaudhary]

!!!! Awesome !!!!

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Great example of how footage gets into FCP! Now you guys need to do one on how it gets out of FCP to a deliverable format (that one doesn't need the Scorsese™ Goodfellas™ nightclub shot, but I appreciate the extra effort ).

 

[suwak]

http://red.cachefly.net/video/red-mythbust.m4v

red mythbuster

Can't download it. Is it me only? The file downloads around 10% and then stops. I've tried on two comps. Help anyone? Maybe torrent?

Edit:
It did download this time. Few ours later, I didn't touch anything, not even restart firefox. Thank you for a cool video and sorry for pointing non existing problem.

 

[Russell Fogle]

Catpants... What's deceitful? not listing every piece of equipment in the building that has absolutely nothing to do with the point that they are making?... or firing off on two guys anonymously while hiding behind a goofy user name?

The only thing that they were showing for simpletons such as myself is that 1: you could plug in the RED Raid drive directly into FCP and play 2K files in real time on a 2K projector without any fancy steps and 2: that it offers lots of quick workflow options while still shooting & having your full res 4K file. Nobody made any claims in the video that they were working effortlessly in 4K. You completely missed the point of the video...

Myth?... that the format is hard to work with in post... Yes that heresy very well does exist among clients and others, and for 98% of us that do not have needs or outlets for 4K finals this is a beautiful thing.

The cost effective post solutions just haven't caught up to the cost effective camera yet... but come next week at NAB that will probably change, and or will definitely change in the future. Is Final Cut supposed to be able to work with the native 4K files... Yes. Why it currently hasn't been worked out... Who knows, but Jim has noted that more 4K post workflow solutions will be comming out soon.

If you want to fire off at people for reasons that are off the topic of the video have at it, but you should at least have the decency to identify yourself in the process.

Hidden agenda's anyone?

By the way seeing that you are new to the forum I thought that I would let you know that there is a thread specifically dedicated to 4K workflow. Your complaints about the RED 4K workflow not being entirely up to speed would be better severed there...

 

[Russell Fogle]

P.S. Catpants next time before you blast the credibility of people & companies on a public forum for things that they never said... (They were taking about SHOOTING in 4K and quickly working in 2K... The video certainly wasn't about high end finishing in 4K...)

Please use this it should make things a little more clear to you... (see attached)

We Welcome you to the Forum!

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Let's play nice, people. I would hate to come in here and impose any of that forum censorship stuff.

Anyway, great video. As Dino points out, this is the perfect little video to show skeptical clients, etc.. who want reassurance that footage can be used quickly.

 

[Jörgen Persson]

P.S. Catpants next time before you blast the credibility of people & companies on a public forum for things that they never said... (They were taking about SHOOTING in 4K and quickly working in 2K... The video certainly wasn't about high end finishing in 4K...)

Please use this it should make things a little more clear to you... (see attached)

We Welcome you to the Forum!

Halfway through Ted said "we're actually editing 4k in Final Cut, in realtime without rendering".
This video is not about busting myths. This is just clever marketing so people can see how "easy" it is to post 4K.


Does anyone on this forum think that editing

• a 2K wavelet portion of a 4k file
• in medium quality
• with 8 bit rendering

should be called 4k editing?

I don't.

FYI. I love the Red camera and the possibilities it creates. I have done post on two projects on Red #528 on both Avid and FCP and it has worked out great.

 

[planet e]

So the Red people are being a bit disingenuous here. This video is spin doctoring. The old politician's trick of answering a different easy question instead of the real hard one being asked.

The post issues with Red have not thing to do with importing or editing proxies. The issues are how to deal with the 4k raw files. This is the real myth they have to deal with. They don't want to tell you that dealing with 4k images is presently beyond FCP or any other software product available on the mac.

Lots of us who are receiving or recently receiving cameras have basic--and I mean very basic--workflow questions, because there seem to be many options, on the surface of things. This video is for us, because there's a lot of confusion about establishing a basic workflow. That is the target audience: those who want to know how to shoot in 4K, edit in the system you already own.

You're describing parts 2, 3, and 4 in what I hope is a series. So instead of flinging nasty accusations about spin doctoring, sit back, relax, and enjoy a very cleverly conceived show. One which I am grateful for...

Once again, Dino, thank you for lending a helping hand to us REAL USERS and never mind the spammers. I found this video massively clarifying. And it was entertaining as well. Nice work.

(In the next edition, show how you can back the video to REDCine using Crimson Workflow and save yourself a massive amount of transcoding time and get whatever output files you want...)

Of course, there are far more complex 4K workflows and expensive finishing workflows. But this system isn't completed yet. RED has already said that they are showing a 4K prototype monitoring system in 3 days. That will be game-changing.

My biggest complaint is that SOMEONE SHOULD STICKY THIS!!!!

Spending hours plowing through forums to find simple solutions should not be so damn complicated. It was random surfing that led me to a thread called Red Mythbusters: Well done - and the title reveals nothing. Thanks Russell for posting it. But stuff like this needs a more clarifying name.

I wish the forum moderators would moderate a little more, no offense guys, but crucial info should get stickied, and it rarely does. We have to fend for ourselves more than is necessary....

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Does anyone on this forum think that editing

• a 2K wavelet portion of a 4k file
• in medium quality
• with 8 bit rendering

should be called 4k editing?

Hmmm... I suppose it's a matter of perspective. And it also makes you wonder just how well scripted this whole thing was. Yes, there is a bit of a marketing rub here if you want to look at it that way.

Personally, I would go along with the editing 4K. Because that is what you are doing, even if you're using the 0.5K QT pointers. You're still editing with the contents of that 4K REDCODE file.

Now finishing from a full 4K source debayer is a different story. They were talking about qoing from shooting to quickly editing footage, not finishing. Two different things.

 

[Jörgen Persson]

Now finishing from a full 4K source debayer is a different story. They were talking about qoing from shooting to quickly editing footage, not finishing. Two different things.

Then why on earth did they go into the DI suite with the harddrive?
If that's not a finishing environment then what is?

It's marketing hype. And both Apple and Red is awesome at it.

 

[Thomas Koch]

They also generate a 4K proxy, for um... the future? NAB?

Great video guys!!!!!