RED lenses - why not T stop

[David Mullen ASC]

First of all, anyone shooting with the RED camera is a defacto cinematographer and is going to have to learn how to shoot, and the T-stop issue is mainly one about efficiency on the set, which I assume is valuable to low-budget people as much as anyone, if not more so. So to say "I'm not a cinematographer" is sort of meaningless because these are issues of photography that everyone will have to deal with, whether it's you shooting by yourself or you hiring a cinematographer to use your equipment. The technical problems of optics and exposure don't just disappear when the camera is not being used by professional cinematographers.

We're talking meat-and-potatoes of filmmaking here: exposing, pulling focus, switching between lenses, etc. This is not some esoteric arty discussion. It's about work efficiency.

Second, I don't want anyone who wanted to buy the lenses for the price advertised to be unable to -- I just wanted the option of T-stops for people who wanted them on their lenses, just as many people here have been asking for options to make their work easier, whether it is timelapse features, long exposures, high frame rates, recording the flash memory cards, whatever -- many of which requests are far more complicated to implement than a T-stop mark on a lens!

Hopefully you'll all get your lenses for the price you had hoped to pay for them.

 

[Roberto B]

First of all, anyone shooting with the RED camera is a defacto cinematographer and is going to have to learn how to shoot, and the T-stop issue is mainly one about efficiency on the set, which I assume is valuable to low-budget people as much as anyone, if not more so. So to say "I'm not a cinematographer" is sort of meaningless because these are issues of photography that everyone will have to deal with, whether it's you shooting by yourself or you hiring a cinematographer to use your equipment. The technical problems of optics and exposure don't just disappear when the camera is not being used by professional cinematographers.

say this to Mr. Lynch or Mr. Von Trier and you'll see what they'll answer you..

I just wanted the option of T-stops for people who wanted them on their lenses

i wonder why.. don't you have your beloved and expensive glass?.. :sarcasm:

 

[David Mullen ASC]

David Lynch and Lars Von Triers have either used consumer DV equipment with many automatic features and shot the movies themselves... or they used professional film or HD gear and hired professional cinematographers.

The RED camera is not a PD150 with a fixed servo-controlled zoom with auto-focus and auto-exposure; it requires a little more advanced knowledge of cinematography to operate and take advantage of its features.

As for whether someone like Lynch or Von Triers would buy a RED camera and learn to use it themselves... or stick to simpler prosumer gear for their own self-photographed projects and hire a cinematographer when they wanted to use the RED camera (as they have for F900 HD projects, for example), I don't know, you'd have to ask them.

If you're saying that cinematographers know more about cinematography and care more about learning and mastering the subject than most film directors might, that's sort of a no-brainer. That's partly what directors pay them to do, care about those details so they don't want to have to waste their time dealing with them, so they can concentrate on directing the movie. A director shouldn't care about T-stops versus f-stops -- it has nothing to do with directing! Just like they shouldn't care about what type of battery the camera is running on, or what brand of audio tape the sound recordist is using. There are lots and lots of details that professionals are paid to care about so that the director doesn't have to even think about it. And if a director choses to shoot a movie himself, either he simplifies the process to reduce the level of details he has to deal with, or he delegates some of that to others, or he decides to accept some loss of quality and control in order to allow himself to shoot and direct simultaneously. Or he masters cinematography himself, as someone like Kubrick did (and even he chose to work with cinematographers even though he could shoot the movie himself.)

 

[Roberto B]

David Lynch and Lars Von Triers have either used consumer DV equipment with many automatic features and shot the movies themselves... or they used professional film or HD gear and hired professional cinematographers.

The RED camera is not a PD150 with a fixed servo-controlled zoom with auto-focus and auto-exposure; it requires a little more advanced knowledge of cinematography to operate and take advantage of its features.

As for whether someone like Lynch or Von Triers would buy a RED camera and learn to use it themselves... or stick to simpler prosumer gear for their own self-photographed projects and hire a cinematographer when they wanted to use the RED camera (as they have for F900 HD projects, for example)

sure.. lol

are you certain about that?.. loooooooool

i was expecting this your post.. but not so much there.. better?.. it would be impossible.. LMAO i might hire you for my scriptwriter.. not screenwriter.. but don't be worried.. you're already dp and i'm used to write my own stuff.. :weight_lift: at least, you know their first names.. eheheh.. but Trier doesn't take any letter "s" at the end.. only "von" before.. eheheh.. "von" in danish is something like asc.. eheheh

courtesy by another dp/filmmaker and reduser gold member.. sanjin..

but on this one, perhaps his first name is not familiar.. at least, by now.. before his red purchase.. eheheh

ah! red buyer.. we should not forget..

btw, i thought jackson would also be there.. eheheh..

 

[Gordon Prince]

Ah Ah Ah

"and hire a cinematographer when they wanted to use the RED camera (as they have for F900 HD projects, for example)"

Brilliant, Filmmaker, brilliant.

 

[Damien Molineaux]

This is silly, not brilliant, what's the point. Wow, you've got a picture of Lars Von Trier operating a camera. Von Trier, and even more so David Lynch, have both worked with professonial DPs on numerous project. The fact that he's operating doesn't mean he doesn't have a DP lighting and setting the exposure ! Ridley Scott, for example, is a director who likes to operate his camera, he still works with a DP. As a matter of fact many DPs don't operate, that's what camera operators are for.

Are you afraid of a professional cinematographer, like David Mullen, using the same equipement you'll be using. Why attack a well respected professional like him ? Anyhow, to each his own way of working, Red One and Red lenses are but tools. Let's see what anyone makes of them.

Cheers,
Damien

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Usually Lars Von Trier hires a DP like Anthony Dod Mantle on his HD features (like "Dogville"). Lynch acted as his own cinematographer on "Inland Empire" using a prosumer DV camera.

Lars Von Triers has operated the camera himself (as the photo shows), but I'm not aware of any of his features where he acted as the cinematographer, other than his DV-shot ones where is his simply listed as a co-cameraman. Maybe someone has some real info on that.

There are of course director/DP's out there, especially in the commercial world. Steven Soderberg, Robert Rodriquez, and Peter Hyams come to mind.

 

[Matt Uhry]

sure.. lol

are you certain about that?.. loooooooool

i was expecting this your post.. but not so much there.. better?.. it would be impossible.. LMAO i might hire you for my scriptwriter.. not screenwriter.. but don't be worried.. you're already dp and i'm used to write my own stuff..

Hey Filmmakers Gang. What's your real name? Can I see your films anywhere?

Your anti-craft sentiments don't contribute much to this discussion. A few filmmakers are into that for various reasons, but there's not much to talk about on a camera board if you aren't concerned about how your images look.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

 

[David Mullen ASC]

The thing is that if the whole T-stop issue is completely irrelevant to your own filmmaking work, that's fine -- but that doesn't therefore mean that it is meaningless for someone else. Everyone chooses how deeply they wish to go in learning the technical aspects of filmmaking.

This is sort of a tempest in a tea cup though. The f-stop thing is merely a minor annoyance to be dealt with on a set when swapping lenses a lot or using multiple cameras, nothing that can't be dealt with. But it's one of those little things where if there is a solution, then some people are going to want it, just like some people are going to care more about the mattebox and rod/cage configuration than others and have strong opinions about that topic. I doubt that Lars Von Trier cares much about mattebox design differences, and probably he doesn't need to. But that's not the same thing as saying it therefore doesn't matter because it doesn't matter to him in particular.

 

[Finner]

Hi Matt and David

I learned a while back that this filmakers gang is just a bunch of kids that goat people and try and upset them. Their posts are consistantly incoherent and I have not seen one intelligent or useful post from them that adds anything of value ever. Your time will be better spent just ignoring them.

 

[Roberto B]

dear dps,

first of all, i'm not falling in love for 50% of all dps that i know or read.. lol

after that, i didn't attack anyone.. i just was 100% correct.. so, leave your corporate defense away from these forums..

about if i'm afraid of professional cinematographers like david? yes, i am.. so what?

david, i know there's a lot of people here who is thinking you're a king.. maybe you are.. the king of the cinematographers.. BUT not my king.. at least, to me.. and for a lot of people here.. there's a lot written coming from the mailing exchange beyond these boards.. a lot hidden under our thoughts..

you're the same who once said..

"My biggest bit of skepticism regarding the RED camera is still the price point of $17,500 per camera -- I just don't see how they will make a profit"

only two months ago, there was an open thread here..

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1133

in these same boards, now "highjacked" by the same people who didn't believe in Red at all.. when we were giving our own money in the jim jannard's hands.. just for our dream.. a world without dps..

looooooooooooool

about my nick, this is a forum, right?.. the administrator gives me the right to have my account under an anonymous identity.. i have no need to show off.. my marketing stuff is done outside on the real world.. perhaps it's there where you matt may already had heard something about my work.. or you shall hear talk about.. period




david, you forgot Robby (Müller).. he's known as the Wenders DoP but he has worked with Benigni, Jarmush.. and of course, Breaking the Waves is his work too.. but don't try find my name on credits.. eheheh.. this nickname is not there..

 

[Don King]

I have no knowledge that it will be the case, but it wouldn't surprise me if RED lenses were available for order with a choice of F stops, T stops, or maybe both.

It's true that T stops are the tradition in film workflows, with 35mm and S16mm lenses, but RED One will also be used in a diverse array of EFP applications with B4 lenses and 35mm still lenses that are traditionally marked in F stops.

In technology pedigree RED One camera body itself is most closely related to DSLRs, followed by video cameras, and only distantly related to film cameras - and DSLRs and video cameras traditionally use lenses that are rated in F stops.

Media convergence is a tricky business. People from different backgrounds want the new technology, but they are most comfortable with nomenclatures that they are used to. Like I said, a good compromise would be for purchasers to be able to order their RED lenses in a choice of T or F stops, or more economically for RED, for both to be somehow marked on the lens.

I never said it was for everyone; just think it is silly to whine about T versus F or vice versa. One thing that does concern me is the price of the Red primes staying low and if you start having to worry about putting double markings for everything it puts upward pressure on pricing.
Aloha
-A

The film industry being what it is I'm sure someone will produce a plastic strip that wraps around the lens and gives you accurate T-Stops, the only problem is we'll pay $1000 for it

why not f stop?

the cheapest the better

less cheaper, less affordable, less sales.. everything less.. who knows if less sales success wouldn't mean less red or if not even red.. no less..

There are different markets here. If it'll the most expensive option, I think it'll be a bad move. If not, who's against the more choices out there? But I believe these people are preferring to have it because it's affordable instead no money to buy it. My 2 cents.

Less expensive ones.

The point is that a part of us is not dp, cinematographer, etc.

I'm afraid it won't be good news for everybody...

I have only just caught up with this thread and felt that I would like to add to the debate.

I don't have a background in cinematography; I make self funded movies using the best cameras and equipment I can afford to buy because I love the art of film making. I don't like to hire anything unless I have to because of the high costs. I ordered a red camera because of the increased quality it will give me and because of it's low price. Jim is giving us a movie making system that is unparalleled in quality for the money. He has carried out his pricing/quality philosophy right through the range of accessories and the lenses. I for one was amazed at a set of 5 cine prime lenses for under $20,000and as soon as I had aquired the camera intend to buy this set. But after reading this thread and the heated discussion on the pros and cons of Fstops versus Tstops I became a bit dispondent that pressure is being applied to Jim to go against a decision he had made on the price point of going with the Fstops.

Now I have read all the posts of this thread and accept that professional cine lenses have Tstops and through David Mullens excellent explanation of the reasons why the difference and a preference for the Tstops in the professional world of movie making are so important. As I see it, without getting emotional, there are two camps here; the cinematographers who are used to working with with budgets that permit hiring cameras and lenses; and cinematographers who shoot with their own cameras and lenses.

When you have large budgets that allow you to hire the best equipment going it's easy to say I want this and that and get it. However, when you are shooting on your own equipment and you have a very limited budget sometimes coming out of your own pocket a few hundred dollars here and there can make hell of a difference to what you can afford. It's all right for people to say I don't mind paying upto $30,000 for a set of Red primes but to a lot of hopeful Red owners that extra $10,000 is going to make the lenses too expensive an option for them and I include myself in that.

I don't know how much of an increase the prime set would have to be raised to accomodate the wishes of those who want the Tstops but I am sure if it had only been only a few hundred dollars on the price of the package I am sure that we wouldn't be debating this issue now.
It would be so sad to see a lot of Red owners have to go to 35mm still primes because this issue puts the price of the Red primes out of their price range. I am not saying that still lenses are inferior in any way but the chance of owning a set of Red primes especially matched to the Red camera is a dream come true.

Jim has given us indies, with limited budgets, a chance to produce our projects with top quality equipment never dreamt of before, and I thank him for that; but it would be such a shame to see him have to change tack mid-stream.

Although just following a few pages here, there's truly grown-up people posting their own thoughts... And needs. Enough said, fair enough.

 

[Brook Willard]

What are you guys doing in here? This is a good thread...

 

[Mr. Paul White]

On Lars von Trier's pic, there's actually a lot of directors who prefer to operate the camera themselves. And a strong feeling of "corporate defense" on it as natural reaction. We the producers are used to deal with these battles each day of our business. But if a director wants to go alone, this can mean a better balance between above and below the line. Thus, to each his own.

I believe this camera is an add value for any producer since, if possible, it can mean a better low budget management. To own instead to rent, targeting and spreading still further for more productions, smaller crews, more artistic freedom, etc. That's where the f stop instead the T method, it can do all "the" difference. Like this other poster said:

It is a bit more involved than just painting marks, there is aditional engineering and testing needed. Then if you produce them with three different options it does increase cost. I think one set of markings F or T is great, someone will be unhappy but such is life.
Aloha
-A

 

[chuck colburn]

As a point of intrest, what amount of transmission stop error could you live with? 1/10th stop? 1/8, 1/4?

 

[Stephen Williams]

As a point of intrest, what amount of transmission stop error could you live with? 1/10th stop? 1/8, 1/4?

Hi Chuck,

+/- 1/16th which equals 1/8.

Stephen

 

[Gordon Prince]

david, you forgot Robby (Müller).. he's known as the Wenders DoP but he has worked with Benigni, Jarmush.. and of course, Breaking the Waves is his work too.. but don't try find my name on credits.. eheheh.. this nickname is not there..

Are you forgetting Dancer in the Dark where several custom anamorphic lenses were used on a simple prosumer PD-150?

 

[PaulClements]

What are you guys doing in here? This was a good thread...

lol, I second this notion, stick to the thread gents

 

[Policar]

If you're exposing with a vectorscope you don't need t-stops.

Of course, adding t-stops would make the lenses more appropriate for film, which opens up a new market.

 

[Don King]

And it closes the doors for many...

Edit: The most part which has become this project... (as a possible project).