Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Handheld

C

Chasm

New member
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
58
I am considering using the Red on a documentary project.

I would really like to hear current feedback of people using the Red as a handheld cam with the EVF. I want to address Red's form factor and ergonomics as a handheld tool.

I would especially like to hear from people who have shot with the camera handheld professionally. Preferably using the EVF. Spinal status after a day of verite style shooting?

Other questions I have are:
Weight?
I forsee a Red base produciton pkg., w/ Red brick, Red Flash Drive, Red 18-50mm or similar optics w/ EFV. With accessories including light weight matte box. This comes to about 20-25 lbs., right.......? Please, don't say it's 30+lbs. I've read the EVF is heavy.?

Baseplate? There seems to be no consensus on what works best for docs with this cam in regards to baseplates. Speed and smoothness of transition from handheld to sticks is vital. Suggestions?

I've read that the shoulder pad that slides into the base-plate has 'a lot' of play in it. True?

Any critical feedback from people working with the cam as a handheld tool would be appreciated. Any pictures of the various handheld configurations people have come up with would be kewl too.


Chas Isenhart
Director of Photography
Denver, Colorado
www.chasisenhart.com (under construction)
 
hand held questions

hand held questions

Chasm said:
Other questions I have are:
Weight?
I forsee a Red base produciton pkg., w/ Red brick, Red Flash Drive, Red 18-50mm or similar optics w/ EFV. With accessories including light weight matte box. This comes to about 20-25 lbs., right.......? Please, don't say it's 30+lbs. I've read the EVF is heavy.?

Baseplate? There seems to be no consensus on what works best for docs with this cam in regards to baseplates. Speed and smoothness of transition from handheld to sticks is vital. Suggestions?

I've read that the shoulder pad that slides into the base-plate has 'a lot' of play in it. True?

Any critical feedback from people working with the cam as a handheld tool would be appreciated. Any pictures of the various handheld configurations people have come up with would be kewl too.
www.chasisenhart.com (under construction)
Click to expand...

Red will be between 30-35lbs in handheld mode, depending on Accessories. The shoulder pad is a bit narrow, so take extra care to keep your horizon level.

My brother and I have played with almost every configuration imaginable to find a stable and comfortable spot for the handgrips, shoulder pad and LCD. At first I wanted my hands as close to the lens as possible (I'd love a 35 version of an ENG lens!), but the Red was too tippy (narrow shoulder pad and high centre of gravity) so now I have the grips in a more traditional cine style - low and wide to keep the camera more stable. Like so many cameras today Red is front heavy so I have the shoulder pad slid a ways forward and the battery extended out the back on the top rods. It is possible to balance the camera front to back, which compensates for its' weight. Ultimately you'll just have to play with it yourself to come up with your own configuration.

Don't forget with 35 DOF you will need an AC pulling focus for you (get a good follow focus with a whip so the AC doesn't bump your shot while pulling focus).

Red's not like shooting HD on an F900r with an ENG lens (in more ways then one)!
 
How many docs have an AC to pull focus? LOL!
How many ground breaking docs are going to be filmed in places like Iraq (see the usual round of Oscar nominations for the last few years) with an AC pulling focus, and a 35 pound rig?
If that really is the only way to use the camera then they these docs will be filmed on an EX1 :-)
 
i've been pulling focus myself on the lens barrel for weeks. no ac. no follow focus. its a dream with this camera.

sometimes i wish i could press the focus punch in button twice and have it zoom in even a bit more before going back to normal though
 
Since I am coming from a video background I would really like to understand this...when you decide to switch from sticks to handheld - do you have to rebuilt the lower part of the camera and srew the shoulderpad on? Or can you just take the camera of the tripod and shoot handheld because the shoulderpad is mounted under the camera at all time?
I am used to work with HD / SD cameras and I really love the flexibility of these in terms of handheld / sticks...

Thanks, Oliver
 
I second that question Oliver :-)

A lot is being made here of Element Technica's new gear, but I just can't imagine filming in the main bazaar in Tehran with no official permission with a rig that looks like that.. I mean can you imagine?? LMFAO..

Not that the ET people aren't doing a great job.. but it's just not designed for that kind of doc filming.. Not the ET gear that I've seen anyway.

If I could make a wish list it would be for the absolute minimum of stuff to be put on the camera; as small and as light as physically possible. And I really mean VERY small and VERY light. It's cool for Feature stuff but it's just hysterically funny that all the accessories seem to be enormous and weigh a ton: the RED arm weighs more than the lcd it's holding! That's insane..
For the kind of docos I make, I absolutely need to be able to put the entire working camera in a soft ordinary looking bag, sling it round my shoulder with my tripod in the other hand and go.

Maybe that's not possible. I'm cool either way.. If the RED camera can't be used for that kind of filming then I'll go with something else. But I'm still eagerly waiting to see a genius solution posted here.
 
Hate to break it to you Fergus, but it's not a small or light camera. In operating condition, you're looking at 20+ lbs, and it's BIG. If you're not using a cine-style prime lens, the B4 adapter is BIG and makes the camera longer than most ENG cams (once you add a battery). The reason all the accessories you see are so "beefy" is because this thing is big and heavy. The battery plate has no good mounting point, and thus must be overbuilt to prevent you from snapping it off by accident. The LCD is small and light, but to offer positioning flexibility, a noga arm is the std. accessory. And Noga arms are actually very small and light, perhaps a bit too lightweight to properly hold the LCD. I'm guessing you haven't seen the EVF??? It's about 3lbs and 8" long. This is NOT a 1.5" or 2" CRT black and white finder from the typical sony/panny broadcast cam. It's the Accuscene finder rehoused and repriced to fit RED. Amazing technology, but it's still VERY large.

I spent the morning at Element yesterday discussing handheld, and as much as we all may think our needs or views are totally unique... well there's just not that many ways to safely and quickly rig a camera. Handheld is not a foreign use of a camera, and Element understands that if you're shooting handheld, whether on a feature, doc, backyard film, or resolution chart - less weight is better, and more comfort is better. My only complaint with RED the company has been, since day 1, their disregard for ergonomics. Oliver just touched on something that's SO simple that it's annoying it was overlooked. There is no built-in provision for handheld. No pad, no battery mount, no way of balancing. It's easy enough to add those things (via RED's dovetail or the Element technica Arri-style dovetail, but the camera grows pretty quickly. The real problem???? All the people who want this camera to be all things at all times. Modularity costs weight and complexity. You can definitely machine parts to strip this thing to bare minimum, but you give up the flexibility of the "mounts and rods everywhere" philosophy. Or, you can have the top rails, bottom rails, handles, cheese plates, extensions...etc... and end up with a lead brick sitting on your shoulder.

If there's a need, someone will fill it. Right now, there IS a need for streamlined handheld, and Element is working tirelessly to think of ways to do it that will satisfy not only those people who have bought all of RED's accessories, but also all of Element's accessories, Arri's, Chrosziel's Petroff's, etc...

But in the end, if the goal is a fast inconspicuous camera... RED ain't it. The industrial design is enough to get you shot in a Tehran market. Some people think it's cool to have all your products look like weaponry.
 
hi chasm: have you visited any of the RED cameras in the area? (mine will be here in march, so far so good...). the great thing about RED is its modularity.
i plan to use one of mine pretty stripped down in a lot of fast(er) environments. and, having visited a few cameras locally, i think it will be ok...the issue is that most people doing handheld are shoulder-mounting the camera, but if you are used to or skilled at handholding without the shoulder mount, i think it will be okay.

the shoulder mount, let's be frank, is perfectly awkward, and the shoulder pad is horrible. but i plan to do a lot of moving work without it and treat it like a Z1U...with screw in filters. my main concern for this kind of work isn't the form factor, it's the audio, which, from what i have seen, isn't yet supportive of the single operator, fast environment. i'm holding out hope that they will bring the quality of the audio up to the quality of the rest of the camera....
 
Jaron Berman said:
The industrial design is enough to get you shot in a Tehran market. Some people think it's cool to have all your products look like weaponry.
Click to expand...

:) Brilliant Jaron! I laughed out loud at that one.. Yeah, I live in London and my car has been broken into twice but they didn't steal it because it's so crap looking.. :usd: It does a fantastic job of getting me around though.

I think respect to RED and ET, it's pretty much impossible to be all things to all men..
 
Jaron, great answer - thanks. Well, I always thought RED is going to bring together the best things of the film AND video world. Integrated shoulder pads have been part of the video world forever. Why not using it from the very beginning? And it's not that one is asking for revolutionary designed shouldermounts. The one in my DVW-970 is still simple, but it's flat and you can balance pretty good.
The run & gun style was a big issue on this forum months ago. When I am shooting doc style on a african bazaar there is just no time to change the setup. Despite the fact that the director would go crazy...:w00t: : "Sorry, just gotta rebuilt the camera...be back in 3 minutes...hell, where is the screwdriver?"

Thanks, Oliver
 
This weekend I made some test with n336 on crowded Bars here in Lausanne(Switzerland) at friday night. Shot without light, I could say with no light as my gossen colormaster indecated Lux "EU", with a 32mm Zeiss 1,4t.

It was hand held with the basic mount and two hand grip. It was like shooting on a S16mm arri SR2 and the 2 hours of REDCODE on board gives you a great freedom. I won't tell you how I pulled focus... but on this lens 32m 1,4 you could really see if something was in focus.

It was joyfull shooting with this cam even if my handheld mode could be much more improved, (EVF, lightweight rods, other shoulder mount, different configurations on battery/hard drive setup).

I would definitly shoot docus on this cam.

See you.

PS : On the original shoulder mount you can put the tripod plate but I didn't test it, so I could'nt tell you if it is in good balance once on tripod.

Pat
 
"when you decide to switch from sticks to handheld - do you have to rebuilt the lower part of the camera and srew the shoulderpad on"

it all depends on how you have your RED built ... if studio mode then it is probably too much weight for the Red dove tail (on tripod) ... if you have you Red built for about 22lbs or less and you have a tight fit Red bottom plate with the dove tail you might be able to go from tripod ( using dovetail on head and keeping Red handles on all the time) direct to hand held ... if the bottom plate & dove tail have a little play in it then it might move slightly on tripod when you start/stop panning ...

to go from bottom plate with cheese plate to hand held you would have to remove the 4 bolts on bottom plate , then remove 2 bolts holding cheese plate , then put bottom plate back on and tighten the 4 bolts , next slide in dove tail and maybe rearrange the placement of the batt .. and then the reverse to go back to cheese plate ...
 
donatello said:
"if you have you Red built for about 22lbs or less and you have a tight fit Red bottom plate with the dove tail you might be able to go from tripod ( using dovetail on head and keeping Red handles on all the time) direct to hand held ... if the bottom plate & dove tail have a little play in it then it might move slightly on tripod when you start/stop panning ...
Click to expand...


Thanks Donatello well explained.

On n336 the dove tail has no play so for us it could work to go from handheld to tripod in 5 seconds...

See you.

Pat
 
What I want? A combined shoulder mount / adaptor plate that I can put on the bottom of a Red One (instead of the official red shoulder mount) that fits into a standard Sony video camera quick-release plate. I'm seriously thinking about cannibalising the bottom off one of the old 537 cameras lying around here.... :)
 
Thanks donatello & pat...

Well, yeah, I like the idea of the standard Sony video camera quick-release plate very much...let's see. It should be possible...

Oliver
 
We have just wrapped on 20 days of our Feature, of which more than 50% was handheld. Small problem we encountered is that if you mount the tripod plate ( for 7x7 sachtler) onto the shoulder mount it juts out over the rubber shoulder pad making the switch from tripod to shoulder slower if you want to avoid the plate sticking into your shoulder. This is a heavy camera, with our minimum build of Superspeeds, clamp on Arri box 1 x filter follow focus, lcd , drive etc its pretty hard work. I have an Easyrig with the 650N arm and this is the go, this seriously made the long days possible. I would note that the 650N arm was at its limit if we added pretty much anything else as the camera was close to 14 kgs. For any angle other than off the shoulder, long takes without shaking are not easy without the easy rig. Also the hand grips slip however much you tighten them we ended up using the fingers from disposible rubber gloves as sleeves between the rods and handgrips, this stopped them from slipping just gave them a slightly flexible feel. This is not an unobtrusive setup, but the camera itself with batteries, drive, lenses and matte box is already at least 70cms long you can't hope to hide with it. I would not use this camera for documentaries in dangerous situations, imagine running with a 14 kg camera + pack. The 2k scarlet sounds promising.
 
Thanks to all who replied. It seems that the Red One pkg. configured for doc. work may be just right or just too much, depending on the subject.

If shooting 'Breast Augmentation in Beverly Hills', I'd say it might make sense. However, if shooting 'The Streets of Islamabad' it might make sense to consider a different pkg, like say Scarlet. It's always gets back to matching the right cam with the right story.

When you get your cam. Planet E., please contact me. Obviously, I need to try this camera on for size and see how it feels on the shoulder for myself.

A 30 lbs.+- handheld cam. pkg represents a considerable amount of weight to me if shooting for long bouts of handheld. Doable yes, but limiting in many doc. situations. As this camera matures with further refinement, modifications and 3rd party accessories I'm guessing you will be able to build a doc. configured handheld Red One pkg. that's both balanced and quick to the sticks in the 20-25 lbs. range. Here's to hope.

The beauty is that with Scarlet coming we will have a range of products to suit more needs. For many 'guerrilla' type docs I think Scarlet and it's more '16ish'mm DOF and '16ish' form factor will be the tool of choice. Again, I'm hopeful.

BTW, are there any links to the individual weight of accessories?
The EVF is 3lbs. and 8" long?

Chas Isenhart
www.chasisenhart.com (under construction)
 
Oliver R. said:
Since I am coming from a video background I would really like to understand this...when you decide to switch from sticks to handheld - do you have to rebuilt the lower part of the camera and srew the shoulderpad on? Or can you just take the camera of the tripod and shoot handheld because the shoulderpad is mounted under the camera at all time?
I am used to work with HD / SD cameras and I really love the flexibility of these in terms of handheld / sticks...

Thanks, Oliver
Click to expand...

take a look at this configuration. from tripod to handheld with ease. It is 37 pounds though.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8952
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top