RED FOCUS..

[Sebastian Winkels]

"As a company who works extensively in the "ob doc" reality TV realm, I cannot see a place for shooting RAW in this area. With very high shoot ratios and hundreds of hours of material to cut, what we want/need is simple and easy. While RAW should offer better picture quality, the extra time it takes us to process means money lost and with dropping budgets, we have to be mindful of this.

Our post workflow uses ProRes from start to delivery and we have never had a complaint over the quality of our output." (Scott Brown)


I mostly work in long format doc projects, too.
We hardly ever know beforehand, if our films end up on TV only or make it to the big screen (festivals/national cinema distribution).
Therefore I absolutely prefer to keep the option to go to post with R3D's.

If the conforming to R3D's is rock solid and super easy (starting from proxie files) I would either
transcode the final cut from the R3D timeline and grade in prores (HQ 1080p)
or go all the way to grading / DCP with R3D's , depending on the budget at the end of production.
That also depends on the client...

That said I'd be very happy to get internal proxie recording (or via a module) that would be pure offline footage,
just light enough to travel around and handle / edit 100+ hrs of footage straight away.
(You can always check focus and exposure of critical shots as R3D in RCX.)

Anything that saves me from transcoding all these hours, costing a lot of time and real money.

Going back to R3D's at the end of the editing process is absolutely manageable,
carrying around huge raid storages and extra horse power (extension chassis + high end cards) is not.

 

[Steve Gibby]

You've been a great contributer here Gibby. I don't have the RED pedigree you have but there has been a lot of good conversation here over the years and I hope it continues.

battistella

Thank you David...

I've appreciated your excellent input here on Red User, along with so many others - Jim, Jarred, Dave Mullen, Jeff Kilgroe, Mark Peterson, Blair Paulsen, Gunleik, Toia, Evin, Brook, Graeme, Ketch, Joseph, Rob Lohman, Stuart English, Phil Holland, Steve Sherrick, Martin Weiss, and on and on and on. Others, please don't feel left out if I didn't mention you - I could have made a list of hundreds, if not thousands who have contributed countless posts and hours of their time for the enrichment of Red User, and consequently Red as a company.

This is a diverse, vibrant, inclusive, and forward looking community, which is deeply and regularly benefitted by the contributions of its members.

 

[Les Hillis]

I don't think the decision-makers at RED need to change their focus. I think they should stay focused on continuing to do what they set out to do in the first place and not be distracted by what others are doing.

That said, I think there have been some good suggestions made in this thread in regards to what RED could do to satisfy the needs/wants of some of its current and potential customers.

People have to remember RED is still a small company though. They've come a long way in a short time, but they still need to choose what they put their time and efforts into. I have no doubt there is a huge list of things RED themselves would like to do if there were 60 hours in a day and they had five times as many people working for them as they do.

In my opinion, they should stick to the current Scarlet/Epic form factor and not waste time developing a new, larger, all-in-one camera body. They should instead focus on realizing the potential of their modular system and develop two or three modules like others have mentioned (separate audio, separate in/out/connectivity etc.), that can become standard fare for rental setups and which will, when all used together, combine with a newly designed shoulder-mounting system to form the all-in-one kind of camera that some markets prefer.

Whether this includes a proxy recording module or not is up to RED determine. In my opinion, the .R3D workflow has gained enough traction and has enough benefits when working at 4K+ resolutions that it could survive allowing people to use an official RED proxy recording module.

In the more distant future, I'd like to see RED expand on the modularity of their camera system, partly by making the use of modules compulsory. No sound or in/outs on the re-designed camera brain. Modular cooling system. A variety of modules within each category (cooling, audio, in/out etc.), and combined modules, such that each module or combined module is customised to suit each particular users needs/wants. That would have been too much for a small, inexperienced company like RED was a few years ago to do, but not now, or in a few years from now.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts/opinions. RED have taken the lead in some crucial area's, but still haven't realized their full potential (not that I know what their full potential is).

I think they need to keep moving forward while filling in some of the gaps in their own game, not lose focus and start playing by their competitors rules/playbook. They can change their marketing image and be less brash/more polite, who cares, as long as they keep pushing the boundaries of developmental rationality like no-one else can or is willing to do.

They're letting their actual products speak for themselves more now, which is probably a good thing. Releasing a carbon fiber/magnesium body says so much more than any amount of marketing speak or internet forum smack-talk.

At the end of the day, all I want from RED is for them to just keep focused on doing more of that kind of stuff that only RED can or dares to do.

 

[Timothy Eaton]

I don't post a whole lot, but had to chime in with my two bits. Maybe I'm missing something, but in my experience the pluses of my ownership of Red One and Epic, and Red in general, so far outweigh the minuses, that it's barely even worth talking about.

Size of the camera. If you start small, you can always get bigger, but not the other way round. What's not to like about a camera that is infinitely configurable instead of something that is locked into a form factor somebody else decided was right? Yeah, it requires a little imagination, but you can set it up to hold it with one hand, still lenses, and do things we never could have imagined with the smallest of 35mm film cameras. Or you can turn it into a studio rig with big Optimos, lockboxes, Prestons, and 3 stage matte boxes to your heart's content. If you want it to sit on your shoulder like an ENG camera, it can be done - just has to do with where you put the EVF and how you balance the back.

Proxies. I own a Red Rocket, but it's used primarily for monitoring and generating stills. I cut in Premiere CC with RAW files - this is Nirvana. I guess I understand the basic premise of wanting proxies, but the idea of clamoring for less resolution, less dynamic range, and less color information, when we all know that many productions will end up finishing on "baked in" just doesn't ring my bell. In film days, when I started on 16, I couldn't wait to start shooting 35. There were drawbacks - the cameras were bigger and heavier, film stock was way more expensive, and the camera systems themselves were so expensive we used to say they were made of "unobtainium." But once I started shooting 35, I never - NEVER - wanted to go back. For 90% of the stuff that a lot of Redusers are shooting, the price of admission to cutting R3Ds with ease is so small, I really don't understand where it's problematic.

RAW. This is the stuff of dreams. When we first started shooting digital, we made do. The Varicam was a pretty good attempt. But it was not even in the vicinity of 35mm film, even though we tried to buck up and like it. But Epic 5K? C'mon. It's beautiful. I can hold the camera in one hand and make lovely images with a sensibility that is different (I'll grant that) from film, but deeply pleasing and rich in it's own domain. Can't wait to get my Dragon.

Epic look. There is no definitive Epic look. It has way more to do with who is pulling the trigger than the camera itself. The reason we see so much crap coming out of Red cameras is, to put it bluntly, there are so many unskilled people using them. That's not a knock on folks, but just because these are digital cinema cameras doesn't mean they come with a "cinematic" button built in. It still takes years of experience to make great images. The tool itself is so far beyond what most users are capable of doing with it, there are miles and miles of growing still to be had. That's very cool.

I can own the friggin' thing. I've owned a lot of cameras, but 535's and 435's were never practical for me as an owner operator. Epic is practical. You would have to pry it out of my cold, dead hands to steal it.

I respect the fact that everyone is in a different place business-wise and career wise. Let a thousand flowers bloom. As for me, I remain unequivocally grateful to Jim and his team for creating this camera. I haven't had this much fun since I bought my Arri SR thirty years ago, and this is way more fun still. Have the Red guys taken a few wrong turns now and then? Sure, but they've gone so far down the right road, that they have earned my deepest respect and a high level of trust. That's pretty rare in this business. I'm all in.

Tim Eaton

 

[Steve Gibby]

I don't think the decision-makers at RED need to change their focus. I think they should stay focused on continuing to do what they set out to do in the first place and not be distracted by what others are doing.

In my post number 209 of this thread I itemized in sequential detail exactly how and when the decision makers at Red have changed their focus since 2005. They have regularly evolved their focus through the years - so why should they stop that nine year trend now?

If Red had continued what they initially set out to to do they would have made, and still be making cameras that were and are nearly equally engineered for both cine style and mobile EFP style production. If you missed in in my post number 209, here's a link to my copyright interview I did with Jim Jannard in late 2005, which was published in the April 2006 edition of Studio Daily magazine. Link: http://www.studiodaily.com/2006/04/first-look-at-red-2/

Beyond its obvious cine industry features, Red One also ended up with lots of EFP industry features, Epic has even more EFP industry features than Red One, but IMO the point at which the Fixed Lens Scarlet disappeared signaled the point at which Red took a marked shift away from mobile EFP support in favor of increased cine style support.

BTW - I definitely agree with the other points in your post about modularity, form factor, modules, etc. Red's focus on those features was there from the very start - they're mentioned extensively by Jannard in my 2006 interview.

In the F55 Sony opted for modularity similar to Epic, as opposed to the Amira which has gone to a much more traditional mobile EFP camera form factor. But with a quick addition of modules the F55 can be setup quickly in that same mobile EFP form factor as Amira.

In summary I largely agree with your post, with the added input above about Red's true original intention, and the evolution of that focus through the years. I was there right in the thick of things with Red all through those years so I have personal knowledge of how everything evolved.

The decision makers at Red are all longtime close friends of mine, still are, and always will be. They have my utmost respect and always will. That said, I've always given them my take on things exactly as I see it, filtered through my own long career in this industry. I know they respect that...

 

[David Battistella]

I'm also for

1. Sticking with the design and adding modules.
2. Not building a whole new camera.

Probably part of what drove the fixed lens away was having to manufacture two different cameras instead of one unique body design, which plugs into the whole ecosystem. Accesories, lens mounts monitoring. It al makes perfect sense.

When red did decide to release the scarlet in its current form I think that sorta mean manufacturing a second camera was not the best way to go (then) but I don't know what that means (now) but the same development to market problems exist and although their manufacturing system is cool I'm not sure how it could be retooled for a whole new body design.

very cool well thought out modules. Yes. Whole new camera. Not so much.

Battistella

 

[Steve Gibby]

On another thread several of us are discussing potential concepts for Red separately optimizing 6k sensors for high res cine industry use and mobile EFP 4k/UHD use. If that was achievable it would satisfy the needs of both cine style and mobile EFP style users of Epic.
Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...ress-the-need-for-a-more-sensitive-5k-sensor-!

Yes - keep the modularity exactly how it is. Modularity was in the focus of Red right from the beginning. Arri opted for a more traditional mobile EFP form factor in the Amira, but Sony opted for the modularity of Epic, with the ability to achieve a traditional mobile EFP form factor with the quick addition of modules. I like modularity for many reasons, not the least of which is the ability to quickly achieve whatever form factor needed for each production you do.

 

[Les Hillis]

Gibby, thanks for sharing your experience and the insights gained from it.

I think if RED can do something to keep their current and potential ENG/EFP customers happy they'll do it. But I don't know if it's even possible for a company of RED's size to make camera's designed to have such different end uses while maintaining the highest quality for both. As much as I'd like to see it done, it seems like a big ask.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks Les...

The basic sensor and complete camera technology used in both digital cinema and EFP cameras is essentially the same - its just tweaked and optimized different for the different applications and shooting style needs. In that I mentioned "EFP/ENG and Red" forum thread today we've been brainstorming ways Red would not have to "re-invent the wheel" and go to great R&D expense, by tweaking and optimizing the existing Dragon 6k sensor into a dedicated mobile EFP optimized sensor, thus offering a Dragon 6k cine version, and for mobile EFP either an add-on 4k RGB module that shoots S-Log and Rec 709, or a re-worked photosite version of the 6k Dragon sensor optimized for low light sensitivity that shoots in 5kHD, 4kHD, and UHD in a 16x9 aspect ratio.

Here's a link to that thread, some very good info on it: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...ress-the-need-for-a-more-sensitive-5k-sensor-!

Red wouldn't necessarily need to offer a fixed lens version of the mobile EFP camera. A modular, detachable lens version that uses the same basic brain shell, but with internal ND filters would do the trick. The great lenses to use on it would be the Fujinon Cabrio zooms: 14-35, 19-90, 85-300, which would allow mobile EFP shooters to shoot in either traditional powered servozoom on lens mode, or quickly in MB/FF/FIZ mode for the occasional cine style production they do.

 

[Jeff Brown]

I think this discussion seems to have drifted a bit. It's not about Red doing their own thing and not copying the competition.

It's about acknowledging the basics like having enough BNCs in the right place and power output for accessories with industry standard connection types.

It's all very well being revolutionary / modular etc but you have to acknowledge that these things come about from practicality and decades of production experience and are expected on a "pro" camera.

Not ticking those boxes is what causes a vast amount of the "Pro" market to despise the Epic.

Whether that's a module or redesign it's extremely frustrating that such a basic few changes haven't been heeded.

Meizler was on the right track (at least in terms of connection layout and type). I've got high hopes that the ET guys can pull something out of the bag to ensure Dragon gets taken seriously in the rental market.

 

[Les Hillis]

Jeff, not trying to be confrontational here so don't take this the wrong way, but if you know what product/s RED should make in order to satisfy the demands of your rental clients, tell them, here and in private. Write it down, make diagrams, send it to them. You've offered in this thread to consult with them, make the same offer via a PM to Jarred. Others should do likewise if they feel they have something important to contribute.

You've described here, based on your real-world experience, what some of the missing on-camera 'basics' are, and made the point that it's just as important for changes to be made on the post side of things. Others have said similar things and given their own ideas on how RED can make their camera's more useful.

Beyond letting RED know in as specific and highly detailed a way as possible what it is you want from them, I don't know what more you and others can do.

I think RED are listening and are willing to take on board the concerns and suggestions of their camera's end-users, but there's obviously got to be a limit to what they're willing and capable of doing to keep everyone happy.

The worst case scenario I can imagine is RED being convinced they need to make some changes, then being left in a vacuum to try and guess what it was exactly people wanted and spending time and effort bringing out products that still miss the mark.

Anyway, that's enough noise from me, I've said what I want from RED, others have said what they want (and should continue to speak up if they want to be heard), and RED don't make it public anymore what their own intentions are. Where it all goes from here, who knows.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I don't post a whole lot, but had to chime in with my two bits. Maybe I'm missing something, but in my experience the pluses of my ownership of Red One and Epic, and Red in general, so far outweigh the minuses, that it's barely even worth talking about.

Size of the camera. If you start small, you can always get bigger, but not the other way round. What's not to like about a camera that is infinitely configurable instead of something that is locked into a form factor somebody else decided was right? Yeah, it requires a little imagination, but you can set it up to hold it with one hand, still lenses, and do things we never could have imagined with the smallest of 35mm film cameras. Or you can turn it into a studio rig with big Optimos, lockboxes, Prestons, and 3 stage matte boxes to your heart's content. If you want it to sit on your shoulder like an ENG camera, it can be done - just has to do with where you put the EVF and how you balance the back.

Proxies. I own a Red Rocket, but it's used primarily for monitoring and generating stills. I cut in Premiere CC with RAW files - this is Nirvana. I guess I understand the basic premise of wanting proxies, but the idea of clamoring for less resolution, less dynamic range, and less color information, when we all know that many productions will end up finishing on "baked in" just doesn't ring my bell. In film days, when I started on 16, I couldn't wait to start shooting 35. There were drawbacks - the cameras were bigger and heavier, film stock was way more expensive, and the camera systems themselves were so expensive we used to say they were made of "unobtainium." But once I started shooting 35, I never - NEVER - wanted to go back. For 90% of the stuff that a lot of Redusers are shooting, the price of admission to cutting R3Ds with ease is so small, I really don't understand where it's problematic.

RAW. This is the stuff of dreams. When we first started shooting digital, we made do. The Varicam was a pretty good attempt. But it was not even in the vicinity of 35mm film, even though we tried to buck up and like it. But Epic 5K? C'mon. It's beautiful. I can hold the camera in one hand and make lovely images with a sensibility that is different (I'll grant that) from film, but deeply pleasing and rich in it's own domain. Can't wait to get my Dragon.

Epic look. There is no definitive Epic look. It has way more to do with who is pulling the trigger than the camera itself. The reason we see so much crap coming out of Red cameras is, to put it bluntly, there are so many unskilled people using them. That's not a knock on folks, but just because these are digital cinema cameras doesn't mean they come with a "cinematic" button built in. It still takes years of experience to make great images. The tool itself is so far beyond what most users are capable of doing with it, there are miles and miles of growing still to be had. That's very cool.

I can own the friggin' thing. I've owned a lot of cameras, but 535's and 435's were never practical for me as an owner operator. Epic is practical. You would have to pry it out of my cold, dead hands to steal it.

I respect the fact that everyone is in a different place business-wise and career wise. Let a thousand flowers bloom. As for me, I remain unequivocally grateful to Jim and his team for creating this camera. I haven't had this much fun since I bought my Arri SR thirty years ago, and this is way more fun still. Have the Red guys taken a few wrong turns now and then? Sure, but they've gone so far down the right road, that they have earned my deepest respect and a high level of trust. That's pretty rare in this business. I'm all in.

Tim Eaton

Lovely post Tim. Thanks for sharing. I pretty much agree with everything you say. Especially "I can own the friggin thing". Laughed out loud at this. Totally agree - I can afford a Scarlet, but can't afford an Alexa. And now...slowly...making my way towards an Epic. Eternally grateful to RED for this. They gave me a cinematic "path" I could actually follow and afford. Step by step. If I'm lucky, that path may end at Dragon.

 

[Jeff Brown]

I agree Les that there's not much else I can do.

I've spoken to /emailed various people at Red a lot but so far I haven't got very far. That's why I thought I'd post here to see if it was just me being unreasonable. I get the impression I'm not given the many people that have similar experiences to me on a daily basis. Maybe what I'm hoping for will never happen (I hope not).

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

1. Sticking with the design and adding modules.
2. Not building a whole new camera.

That seems as most beneficial route when one considers Red's unique competitive advantage of system modularity and market saturation with "all in one" solutions. Cooperation with professional audio companies for a dedicated audio + I/O module would help Red keep focus on picture. Another route might be something like Sound Devices Pix covering audio and picture for broadcast but interfacing directly with the brain through Red module, avoiding cable clutter and increasing speed of shooting.

The only exception to building on modular, which seems to carry a greater competitive potential is a new S16 body, where ultimate portability and practicality are higher priorities than expandability.

 

[David Battistella]

The only exception to building on modular might be a new S16 body, where ultimate portability and practicality are greater priorities than expandability.

true, but that is sorta what the fixed lens scarlet was/is.

battistella

 

[David Battistella]

I agree Les that there's not much else I can do.

I've spoken to /emailed various people at Red a lot but so far I haven't got very far. That's why I thought I'd post here to see if it was just me being unreasonable. I get the impression I'm not given the many people that have similar experiences to me on a daily basis. Maybe what I'm hoping for will never happen (I hope not).

les and Jeff,

sure, there are many ways to communicate with red. This forum allows for a discussion and/or an exchange of ideas. I think with some discussions that works and with some it can be problematic.

We don't know what RED thinks about this stuff, or that we know they are watching it closely or reading it, usually someone from RE d can jump in if they feel attacked but I'd like to see more RED team in these threads which (to some users at least) seem constructive. There are thousands of threads on REDuser that come and go and this could be one of those on that list.

i mean, even I was attacked on this very thread for seemingly telling RED how to do their business? They always, from the early days, seemed to appreciate these threads and I think have used them as a kind of "customer heartbeat".

Or, maybe I am kidding myself. I just don't know.

battistella

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

true, but that is sorta what the fixed lens scarlet was/is.

battistella

Yup. Not that route.
S16 without the fixed lens. Less R&D and the tech is already there.

Camera body with built-in battery slot, using off the shelf media, with product design allowing shooting without the rig (small, elongated, sits in the palm - not DSLR form factor).

 

[David Battistella]

Yup. S16 without the fixed lens. Less R&D.

Camera body with built-in battery slot, using off the shelf media, with product design allowing shooting without the rig.

I hear what you are saying, but I think that the RED epic does the s16 for factor in a 35mm sided sensor. You don't need a rig with a side handle and that includes the onboard battery. They also have a great battery quick release that does the trick.

Off the shelf media is an idea that has been around but I have to say that the reliability of the redmag and it's design for production is much more robust that p2 or SxS or cf cards. Here too, I have to agree with how red did this end of things.


Battistella

 

[David Battistella]

Another route might be something like Sound Devices Pix covering audio and picture for broadcast but interfacing directly with the brain through Red module, avoiding cable clutter and increasing speed of shooting.

if red partnered with sound devices I think that would produce something really impressive. If it had all of the connectivity of the pix 240 with a clean interconnect, shit, that would solve many peoples "headaches".

battistella

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I hear what you are saying, but I think that the RED epic does the s16 for factor in a 35mm sided sensor. You don't need a rig with a side handle and that includes the onboard battery. They also have a great battery quick release that does the trick.

Off the shelf media is an idea that has been around but I have to say that the reliability of the redmag and it's design for production is much more robust that p2 or SxS or cf cards. Here too, I have to agree with how red did this end of things.


Battistella

Yes I understand but using Epic for shooting S16 would just use the format without most advantages of shooting that format.
Which are size, weight and practicality. Vertical handle on a motion imaging camera body is useful only for waist-level shooting.

Media reliability issues with new cards and 3K data rates would most likely be non-existent and with new sensor technology Red would have a compact camera with higher DR and resolution than Alexa, with greatly reduced processing requirements compared to Epic.

No need for "$3K for 3K" and focusing on that market segment with everything it brings.